Where Is The Wheatstone Shield?

[peterhurst]

Hello, I have been looking at some of my old band photographs, and I was wondering does anyone know what happened to the Wheatstone Shield that the bands used to play for. I may have asked this question before. I have a very good photograph of the Astley band from the early 1900,s displaying the shield, and it does appear on other early photographs. I last attended the ICA meeting in the 1970,s and I did ask about it but it seemed to have disappeared even then. Some one must know what happened to it. Thanks Peter.

[Stephen Chambers]

I have a very good photograph of the Astley band from the early 1900,s displaying the shield, and it does appear on other early photographs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Peter,

 

I don't know what became of the shield, though sadly I would not be surprised if, like many other such trophies, it went for scrap years ago.

 

However, I did come across a very fine image of the "Heckmondwike English Concertina Premier PrizeBand, Crystal Palace, September 25th 1909" proudly displaying a large shield which is probably it. I'm not sure because it doesn't appear in my photo of (Astley's) Oldham Concertina Band.

 

 

Do you know which was the last band to win it, or what year ?

 

Edited to add photo. (and quotes)

Edited February 4, 2005 by Stephen Chambers

[Chris Timson]

I know that Gill Noppen-Spacie has the collection of old ICA tin, this may be amongst it. I guess this would be a question for John W or Jim L, as fellow committee members, to put to her.

 

Chris

[wes williams]

..does anyone know what happened to the Wheatstone Shield that the bands used to play for. ...  I last attended the ICA meeting in the 1970,s and I did ask about it but it seemed to have disappeared even then.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think this shield probably never got as far as the ICA. Its not listed as a prize in any of the ICA Festival reports (although I don't have them all). The 1969 Festival prizes for 5 or more players were cups presented by ICA notables, and in 1977 there was:

The "WHEATSTONE" CUP presented by C. Wheatstone and Co. Ltd., for

the highest aggregate of marks, in any three classes, by one

performer, excluding Class 12.

 

(edit to add: which would have been Steve Dickinson by 1977)

Edited February 3, 2005 by wes williams

[John Wild]

I know that Gill Noppen-Spacie has the collection of old ICA tin, this may be amongst it. I guess this would be a question for John W or Jim L, as fellow committee members, to put to her.

 

Chris

 

I think this shield probably never got as far as the ICA. Its not listed as a prize in any of the ICA Festival reports (although I don't have them all).

 

I can confirm that this shield was not among the various cups etc in the possession of the ICA. Our last competitive festival as I recall was probably 1991 (I am writing this without having any records to look at). Most of the categories had cups for the winners. there may have been one shield but one that was much smaller than the one illustrated, and able to be held in one hand.

 

I joined the ICA in 1988 or thereabouts, and I cannot recall any specific reference to the Wheatstone Shield since then.

 

- John Wild

[Stephen Chambers]

I've been meaning to add that I've researched this in the meantime and now think I know what became of the trophy, which (it seems) should more properly be called the Musical Home Journal Shield - in fact it's all in my article on Joseph Astley, Oldham Concertina Band and the MHJ Shield in PICA 4, 2007.

 

But basically: The Musical Home Journal was incorporated with Cassell's Saturday Journal in 1908, and that publication provided the remarkably similar-looking Cassell's Saturday Journal Shield as the "Second Section" brass band prize at the Crystal Palace for a number of years (dates unknown, but certainly in the 1920s). It was won by Long Eaton Silver Prize Band in July 1927, and there is a photograph of them with it at (the new url of) http://www.lespb.co.uk/. The image isn't very clear there, so I've enhanced it as best I can and reproduced it below:

 

 

So I'm afraid it appears that the Musical Home Journal Shield was most likely recycled to produce the Cassell's Saturday Journal one.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Stephen Chambers

[Chris Timson]

Thanks for remembering to update us on this topic after all these years!

 

Cheers,

 

Chris

[MoominDave]

I'm not a concertina player myself, but I thought you might be interested in some further information that I have, which includes the current whereabouts of the trophy. I have put quite a bit of effort into populating the database at www.brassbandresults.co.uk, and in particular to the details of the pre-war Crystal Palace championships there. I ran across this thread while looking for details about the Cassell's Shield; as pointed out above this was awarded at the Crystal Palace band festival between the wars. The festival seems to have included both reed and concertina band sections for some years in the first decade of the 20th century, but it seems certain that only the various brass band sections were run following the contest's post-war resumption in 1920. After WW2, the championships were reorganised and repurposed as the National Brass Band Championships of Great Britain (a strange title, I know, with its uneasy mix of geography and politics), and have been run in a regional qualifying format every year since 1945.

 

To begin by answering the thread title question, I have confirmed the current whereabouts of the shield - it is hanging on the wall of the bandroom of the Kingsway Printers Cleethorpes Brass Band - the location of the building is given on their website, here. When I emailed them, their chairman was good enough to send me a couple of photos of it in situ, which I have uploaded to Flickr, linked here and here.

 

How it got there seems to be a curious tale, one unworthy of such a splendid trophy. It was presented at the Crystal Palace festivals until 1938, after which they were curtailed again by war - noting that the final two such festivals were in fact held at Alexandra Palace after the Crystal Palace was destroyed by fire in November 1936. With the resumption of the contest in its new regionals/nationals layout, for whatever reason this trophy was not used (hard to understand - it is distinctly finer than the trophies that effectively replaced it), and after a number of years it had somehow come to be used as a door-prop (!!!) at Belle Vue in Manchester by a Mr. Baker, a man with evidently strong brass band associations. On retirement, this gentleman moved to Cleethorpes, and offered the shield to the local brass band, who restored it and have displayed it on their bandroom wall ever since. Oddly enough, the Cleethorpes band had in fact competed for it at the Crystal Palace in 1923, but did not win it, taking 4th place that day - still a commendable achievement in the massive sections that the CP festival attracted - 29 bands entered the "Junior Shield A" section in 1923, of whom 25 competed.

The article linked at the start of this paragraph is the sole source of information I've seen on the movements of the shield after its presentation to the Griff Colliery band at the 1938 festival. Unfortunately, the chap who supplied me with the article cannot recall which brass band publication it was in, or when it was published; "late 90s" is his best guess.

 

The new photos allow us to look at the shield in a little more detail; the banner heading simply reads "CASSELL'S SATURDAY JOURNAL", while the upper portion of the central motif bears the words "THE CRYSTAL PALACE BAND FESTIVAL", split into three segments. The lower portion reads in two segments "INSTITUTED 1906" "THE CASSELL'S SATURDAY JOURNAL CHALLENGE SHIELD PRESENTED BY MESS[??] CASSELL LA BELLE SAUVAGE LONDON". There are 9 metal plaques for prizewinner names on the LH side, 8 on the right, making a total of 17 - the topmost on the LH side looks awkwardly squeezed in, and photographs of winning bands with the shield show that up until at least 1930 there were only 8 on each side. Contrast this with the shield in its concertina band incarnation, when it had 10 plaques on each side - I am not sure if all were replaced between 1909 (the date of the above supplied picture) and 1922 (the date of the next picture I know of), or whether the topmost four were simply removed in order to make room for the Cassell's banner - the photos aren't clear to my eyes, and the shapes of these fixtures might well be the same. An examination of the names that are engraved on the trophy might help clear this up - but I have no information on that; I did email back to request details (in February), but there's been no response yet.

 

We know from CP programmes and results that the shield would have been presented to the following bands under the following conductors:

23rd Sep 1922, Junior Shield B: Cambridge Railway, James Ord Hume; photo.

29th Sep 1923, Junior Shield A: Clayton Silver, Joseph Crawford Dyson.

27th Sep 1924, Junior Shield A: Brynamman, J. Morgan.

26th Sep 1925, Junior Shield A: Blyth L&NER, G. J. C. Ritchie.

25th Sep 1926, Junior Shield A: Stenalees, C. Ward.

24th Sep 1927, Junior Shield A: Long Eaton Silver Prize, Harry Evetts; photo.

29th Sep 1928, Junior Shield A: Lumley Colliery, R. C. Lander; photo.

28th Sep 1929, Junior Shield A: Radstock, Thomas Valentine.

27th Sep 1930, Junior Shield A: Shirebrook, Joseph Levick; photo.

26th Sep 1931, Junior Shield A: Ogmore Valley Temperance, T. White; photo.

1st Oct 1932, Junior Shield A: Leek British Legion, Harry Mortimer.

30th Sep 1933, Junior Shield A: Cambridge Town, Robert Austin.

29th Sep 1934, Junior Shield A: Northfleet, Joseph Crawford Dyson.

28th Sep 1935, Junior Shield A: Stourton Memorial, Cyril Wilkinson.

26th Sep 1936, Junior Shield A: Vancouver Kitsilano Boys', Arthur Delamont - yes, indeed that is correct, they had travelled from the West coast of Canada, and were touring the UK.

25th Sep 1937, Junior Shield A: Staines United Temperance, W. J. Sanders.

24th Sep 1938, Junior Shield A(1): Griff Colliery, F. W. Locker.

 

Despite the change from Junior Shield B to Junior Shield A, the section the shield was presented for was consistently the 5th section down - the section above (Junior Cup) divided into two from 1923. Each of the three Junior Shield sections divided into two for the 1938 contest.

I would not be at all surprised if the chap who attends to the online presence of the now defunct Vancouver Boys' band has a picture containing the shield from 1936 - I have emailed him to ask. He has published a number of books about the band, and has a large archive of material.

 

Zooming in to the new pictures, I can confirm that three of the attached plaques, beginning 2nd from bottom on the RH side, and heading clockwise, confirm the details of the victors from 1925, 1926, and 1927, but cannot read the next in the sequence. The conductor name for 1924 is almost discernable, and looks plausible also, 3rd from bottom, RH. But otherwise new detail will require someone to inspect it.

Extrapolating backwards, the initial brass band presentation in 1922 ought to be on the 4th RH plaque down, which begs the question - what inscriptions do the three above it bear? Maybe concertina band winners? However, noting that it was presented to brass bands 17 times and that there are 17 plaques on it, maybe it is more likely that it only has brass band names on it.

 

I hope all this is of some interest - apologies for the lengthy post if not! If anybody is able to examine the plaques in more detail, I would be interested to see the information gleaned.

 

Dave Taylor,

Oxford

Edited July 19, 2014 by MoominDave

[Anglogeezer]

Absolutely brilliant detective work!!!!!

 

A thousand thanks for sharing with us!!

 

Jake

 

 

I'm not a concertina player myself, but I thought you might be interested in some further information that I have, which includes the current whereabouts of the trophy.

....................................................... SNIP SNIP .......................................

I hope all this is of some interest - apologies for the lengthy post if not! If anybody is able to examine the plaques in more detail, I would be interested to see the information gleaned.

 

Dave Taylor,

Oxford

[Chris Timson]

Likewise.

 

Chris

[Geoffrey Crabb]

I

The Musical Home Journal was incorporated with Cassell's Saturday Journal in 1908, and that publication provided the remarkably similar-looking Cassell's Saturday Journal Shield as the "Second Section" brass band prize at the Crystal Palace for a number of years

 

So I'm afraid it appears that the Musical Home Journal Shield was most likely recycled to produce the Cassell's Saturday Journal one.

 

I believe that Stephen was right in that the shield seen in the Concertina Band pictures may not be the same as that seen in later Brass Band pictures and that supplied by Dave. (Thank you Dave for your efforts and I hope you don't mind me reproducing the latest picture in the attachment).

 

Careful perusal of the pictures indicates that one major and two subtle differences occur between the shields and I have attempted to indicate them on the attachment.

 

The shields appear to be similar but that may be because they were made by the same maker using a stock design with changes to suit.

 

It is unlikely that the early shield was recycled or altered, a new shield with new engraving probably being easier and therefore cheaper to produce.

 

I have no knowledge of the original being referred to as the Wheatstone Shield but it is feasible to assume that both Lachenal and Wheatstone both had interest in the competitions hence the provision of concertinas as prizes.

As an update regarding the whereabouts of the ICA 'tinware'.

It was reported in the minutes of the ICA 2009 AGM,

'that Neil Wayne had agreed with the committee to make a donation in respect of which he will take possession of the available ICA trophies (some are missing). The agreement makes clear that the trophies will remain available to members wishing to view them'.

The exchange of donation and trophies was carried out at the close of the meeting.

Geoffrey

[MoominDave]

Intriguing points, Geoffrey. But I think I still go with Stephen's suspicion that this is the same shield - regarding the three points circled in your document:

 

1) Different centre boss.

The centre boss appears made of different metal to the surrounding plate - one could create and fit a new boss for the shield with less ado than recreating the whole shield. As the original boss featured a concertina, it would be natural to alter it for brass band use.

 

2) Different cartouche shape.

I have had a good squint in light of this comment at the available before and after photos of the shield, and genuinely don't think that the cartouche shape has changed. Are my eyes deceiving me?

 

3) The top of the early shield appears to be shaped (extended) to accept the rectangular white plate.

The earlier shape contains all the wood of the later shape - a simple trimming off of material around the new name plate would suffice for this alteration.

 

A strong supporting piece of evidence for me is the legend "Instituted 1906", found in a cartouche lower down the central plate, which can be read in the close-up modern photo. 1906 was the first year that the concertina band section was run at the Crystal Palace festival, as noted by Stephen in his article (whose online location has moved since Stephen's post above - it's now at http://www.concertina.org/archive/pica/pica_2007_4/pica4_2007_p31_44.pdf). In contrast, we know what trophies were presented to brass bands in every year (who had been competing since the first such festival in 1900), and this shield did not feature until 1922 - why would it be labelled "Crystal Palace Band Festival" and "1906" if it was not awarded there for another 16 years?

 

[Geoffrey Crabb]

Intriguing points, Geoffrey. But I think I still go with Stephen's suspicion that this is the same shield - regarding the three points circled in your document:

 

1) Different centre boss.

The centre boss appears made of different metal to the surrounding plate - one could create and fit a new boss for the shield with less ado than recreating the whole shield. As the original boss featured a concertina, it would be natural to alter it for brass band use.

 

2) Different cartouche shape.

I have had a good squint in light of this comment at the available before and after photos of the shield, and genuinely don't think that the cartouche shape has changed. Are my eyes deceiving me?

 

3) The top of the early shield appears to be shaped (extended) to accept the rectangular white plate.

The earlier shape contains all the wood of the later shape - a simple trimming off of material around the new name plate would suffice for this alteration.

 

A strong supporting piece of evidence for me is the legend "Instituted 1906", found in a cartouche lower down the central plate, which can be read in the close-up modern photo. 1906 was the first year that the concertina band section was run at the Crystal Palace festival, as noted by Stephen in his article (whose online location has moved since Stephen's post above - it's now at http://www.concertina.org/archive/pica/pica_2007_4/pica4_2007_p31_44.pdf). In contrast, we know what trophies were presented to brass bands in every year (who had been competing since the first such festival in 1900), and this shield did not feature until 1922 - why would it be labelled "Crystal Palace Band Festival" and "1906" if it was not awarded there for another 16 years?

 

Thanks for coming back on this Dave.

My reply was meant as another point of view but with a little more time I am happy to accept your comments and that the present shield is more than likely to be the modified original.

Regarding your comments raised,

1) Different centre boss. Yes, certainly, the boss could have been changed and with regard to your earlier comment

"The festival seems to have included both reed and concertina band sections for some years in the first decade of the 20th century, but it seems certain that only the various brass band sections were run following the contest's post-war resumption in 1920"

and, that the earlier events seem to have been non-specific 'band' festivals could it be that the boss was designed originally to be interchangeable dependent on which type of band was awarded the shield each year. Only a closer inspection of the shield could determine if this was the case. The representation of a Wheatstone Æola could also suggest that Wheatstone's sponsored the concertina boss if this was the case.

 

2) Further scrutiny of the 1908 picture using a friends (professional photographer) much better enhancement package, does reveal this cartouche to be the same. Because of the raised surface, a shadow/reflection ?? in the unenhanced version does seems to alter the shape, to my eyes anyway.

 

3) Agreed. This seems to have been well done.

 

If the shield was recycled and adopted specifically for later Brass Band competition only, then there is every reasonable possibility and cause for the earlier concertina plaques to be replaced.

 

What I found interesting is that the later and current BB 'Grand Shield' is somewhat based on the shield under discussion. Sorry about the colour

 

The Grand Shield.

 

Geoffrey

[MoominDave]

Yes, you're right, the Grand Shield is remarkably similar, is it not?

 

But then, this shield too was originally used for the Crystal Palace band festival - in fact slightly earlier than the one under discussion, even assuming that the identification of Wheatstone/MHJ/Cassell's shields is definitely correct. The "Grand Shield" was used for the second section at the CP 1904-13 and 1920-38 (i.e. all festivals 1904-38) prior to its resurrection as the trophy for the top section of the British Open Spring Festival, an incarnation which has so far lasted from 1952 to the present day.

 

So the CP people evidently weren't shy of reusing designs, which might stand against the identification of the two shields as one. I think a thorough examination of the shield is in order. Sadly Cleethorpes is not convenient for me logistically - I will give the band people there a ring to see if it's possible to get some more detail.

[Dan Worrall]

Fascinating!

 

I visited Neil Wayne two or three years ago and saw his collection of 'tinware'. I don't remember seeing a shield but I was not focussed on it. I did see a lot of cups. While you're ringing folks, Dave, why not ring Neil about it?

 

Dan