Loud Duet ?

[Geoff Wooff]

Since Dirge says there is not much going on today on Cnet .

 

I am looking for ideas. Nearly two years ago I began to play the Maccann. Now I want to start using it in bands and sessions but the problem is that the instrument I have is too refined in its sound. The Wheatstone Aeola is ideal for solo playing and perfect in the house but it just does not 'Cut It' in the very high volume situations I find myself in at times. It is not so much that I want to make a huge amount of noise but that I cannot hear myself playing and that can be distracting.

 

Last night was typical... a bunch of musicans got together to play for a Dance in our local village hall.. this is without amplification, and there were four Accordions, seven French Bagpipes,two Hurdy Gurdies, one fiddle, an electric Bass guitar and me on Concertina. For these situations I use an English which because of its design and a small amount of 'super charging' can really turn out the noise. It might be best to describe the instrument as a Honky-Tonky-Tina.

 

So, I am looking for suggestions, from Duet players (or anyboby), as to which instrument with a Maccann keyboard might produce the most volume... even if the sound is a little on the rude end of the spectrum.

 

My gut feeling is that the answer ought to lie in the direction of a small size, Hexagonal, metal ended (of course?) instrument.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Geoff.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Geoff Wooff

[David Barnert]

That's certainly not a problem with my Dickinson/Wheatstone 46-key Hayden (hexagonal, metal ended, 6.25 inches across the flats).

[Geoff Wooff]

That's certainly not a problem with my Dickinson/Wheatstone 46-key Hayden (hexagonal, metal ended, 6.25 inches across the flats).

Yes, well that is exactly what I mean... my comparisons come from EC's but a small hexagonal, metal ended is going to lance through the fog way way better than the gentille Ocatgons..

[Ann-p]

I have a raised metal anded 55 key Lachenal which will be available when we have sold our house and I have been able to find another box starting on C on the R.

 

I don't know if it will "cut the mustard" as I don't know how loud "loud" is!

[Mikefule]

<<Last night was typical... a bunch of musicans got together to play for a Dance in our local village hall.. this is without amplification, and there were four Accordions, seven French Bagpipes,two Hurdy Gurdies, one fiddle, an electric Bass guitar and me on Concertina. >>

 

And Sartre said "Hell is other people!" lol

[Dirge]

Chris A has a metal raised end 46 on Ebay too.

 

But I think Ann touched on it. How on earth can you assess 'loud' at long range? You're going to have to just wait for the right one, surely?

 

Why snub an aeola if it turns up though? Do you reckon the long scale reeds are quieter? I'm not convinced; I think your 'problem' is more about leverage increasing with the cross-section on the bigger instruments, which just happen to be aeolas a lot of the time. If I'm playing my 81 I work up a good sweat if playing something thunderous and I wouldn't want to have to keep it up for too long. (How many instruments give you such good exercise when you play them, incidentally?) Loudness seems to be something that varies from instrument to instrument anyway, and I wonder if that is mostly in the set of the reeds?

[Geoff Wooff]

I have a raised metal anded 55 key Lachenal which will be available when we have sold our house and I have been able to find another box starting on C on the R.

 

I don't know if it will "cut the mustard" as I don't know how loud "loud" is!

 

 

Well Ann,

I have played a 55 metal ended lachenal, one that went down to C on the right... and I think it would certainly be more potent in the kind of situation I decribe. Just how much better than the 'polite' (thanks to Chris Ghent for that description) Aeola ,would have to be tested 'In Situe'....

 

Although, for the specific situation, of French Traditional music from my local region, a small Maccann going down only to G on the right hand, could be used ... I am thinking that whilst I'm buying another concertina perhaps I should also go for the 'down to the C' option.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Geoff Wooff

[Geoff Wooff]

It has been said several times that Hexagonal Concertinas are often louder than the Octagonal Versions. Geoff Crabb mentioned this fairly recently but did not offer a possible explaination. Ralph Jordan and Irene S also mentioned that Ralph's Hex 57 was louder than his 57 Aeola. True, Dirge, that some identical instruments can vary in volume and tone. I certainly would not snub any Aeola, if it happened to turn up!

 

Crossectional area is part of the problem and our Dirge is a Strong fellow who is well capable of putting a good heft into his large Duets, but for this specific purpose where I often play for 4 or 5 hours at a stretch in the Dance Band,I doubt I could keep up the force needed.

 

I feel that the long scale reeds coupled with the 'idealised' reed chamber dimensions have the effect of maximising Tone Quality and Balance of sound output for playing chords and generally having nothing that sounds out of place. I would not want to give up the beautiful control of dynamics that the Aeola provides, or for that matter its sheer tone quality but I don't need that degree of nicety for pumping music (sic) out to a couple of hundred sweaty dancers. So whilst it is not easy to measure the output acoustic energy, the rounder tone quality can get swallowed up in a big band situation.

 

 

Loud, would be sitting in front of the Trombone section of an orchestra and having to play a Bassoon, perhaps The little English that I currently use for the Band playing and sessions is " I don't play it at home" type Loud. Prior to getting the loud EC I used my larger Aeola EC with microphones straped to each end, plugged into a guitar amplifier that I placed just behind me so that I could hear what I was playing.

 

I have seen the 46 that Chris Algar is selling and I might just send him a message, he surely would be able to comment of its volume.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Geoff Wooff

[Dirge]

On the 'and a Rh down to middle C' bit:

 

I find I play more in C than anything on my 46. I end based arround an octave up from that of middle C most of the time. Starting at the C above middle C I have half an octave below it; that allows me a few notes of tune that drop below my 'revised middle C' if you see what I mean. It seems to me that this is what was intended when the makers picked the range in the first place. Perhaps the 'must go down to middle C' perceived wisdom is on the principle that the owner will want to take it to a session and play in G, and they also will need the occasional below the main octave note?

 

You say you're playing mostly in C, Geoff? Well the 46 may well be enough. The sheer size of the bellows may be limiting though if you're going to do chording. I've got an extra fold in mine and use every inch of it.

 

I end up playing a little high, using almost all of the keyboard, but it's not offensively trebly and people say nice things about it. That might help to cut through the din though, Geoff. Very rarely I need to pick a note out of the bass but infrequently. But as I've said elsewhere I really like the thing; I'm having a lot of fun with the poppy/folky sort of stuff I used to play on the old piano accordion as a variation from the heavy stuff I play on the big brutes.

[Geoff Wooff]

Yes ,most of the tunes are based around C (and those that are not are in G or the related minors) but they follow the scale range of the Cornemuse (french bapipes) which runs from G (low RH note on the 46) up an octave and a half to C, with very rarely a low F, which would be avoidable. The Hurdy Gurdies will also use this range of notes, but they have a few more at the top end. The Diatonic accordions can do the , playing an octave down bit if they wish, but the concertina is going to be most effectve in the same range as the these bagpipes.

 

The wish to have the RH side down to C may well come from the preference in English Traditional Music Scene of playing in D and G , as in the popularity of D/G Anglos and Melodions. Also the idea that , one might want to play fiddle music, or Irish music which would require a right hand side down to D.

 

I wonder if the 46 might have more GO than a similarly sized 55 (56) , due to having a little more space on board for the reeds.

 

I also like the idea of an extra fold or two in the bellows and as you know Dirge, the Aeola I'm playing has a load more wind in its chest and one gets used to that. Did you get a new bellows made for your 46 ?

Edited February 10, 2013 by Geoff Wooff

[Dirge]

Did you get a new bellows made for your 46 ?

Yes it needed new bellows and Mike Acott who was doing the resurrection job suggested he fit a set of David leese's best quality with an extra fold and that's where we went. They seem excellent as in: I haven't given them a moment's thought, if you see what I mean. I can't tell you what they cost as it was all in the general refit price, which I've also forgotten...

[Chris Ghent]

It has been said several times that Hexagonal Concertinas are often louder than the Octagonal Versions. Geoff Crabb mentioned this fairly recently but did not offer a possible explaination.

I suspect this woiuld be more to do with the intentions of the makers than anything intrinsic to 8 sided or 6 sided concertinas.

[ceemonster]

perhaps you are gonna need to get over your wheatstone bias.... as you point out, the characteristics that make wheatstones so exquisite for classical and parlor or kitchen contexts is maybe the very thing that is frustrating you in the band context. i notice there is a metal-ended 60b edeophone mcc at button box just now. they can be very loud and have lots of "cut." i've been wondering myself what it was like. i'm simply hamstrung as to whether to go duet or EC and have been dithering, dithering, dithering, partly because a loud, metal-ended band instrument is eggzackly what i would like rather than a "refined" instrument. i've teetered on the brink of making a wheatstone ec investment, but i seem unable to make a move and for once am listening to my own reticence and keeping my cards off the table for now. i am really quailing at the idea of making a big investment in something that wouldn't be optimal for the uses i'm after.......... i was on the suttner list for what i thought was going to be a 39-key anglo, but now i'm wondering if juergen could make me a "jeffries-construction" 48-button Tenor rather than a wheatstone-based one. wheatstones are great, but i'm starting to face up to the fact that i don't think they really have the sound i'd be looking for....

 

anyhow, perhaps it might be worth having some colloquy with the folks at bb about what kind of lung power that edeophone has and what kind of shape the action is in. you would be buying in euro, and it would be a very fair deal for you. did the late mr. morse himself play maccann? ...let's face it, there aren't many alternatives around for one in your position....ha, i kinda do wish it was mine. but perhaps it is destined to be yours....

Edited February 11, 2013 by ceemonster

[Geoff Wooff]

Hmmm,

you make a good point there Ceemonster... and yes I do have a distinct Wheatstone Bias which come from a few attempts at the Rattle-ey keyboards of other makes of EC's. However, with a relatively small Maccann the likelihood of having to approach a button at an accute angle ( and find it unresponsive to movement) is reduced so perhaps it is time to look at other makes.

Thanks for the BB tip, I'll take a butcher's.

[Geoff Wooff]

 

It has been said several times that Hexagonal Concertinas are often louder than the Octagonal Versions. Geoff Crabb mentioned this fairly recently but did not offer a possible explaination.

I suspect this woiuld be more to do with the intentions of the makers than anything intrinsic to 8 sided or 6 sided concertinas.

 

Yes well, Chris you would be a Right person to clarify this, having made both six and eight sided Anglos. So I take your point...

[Rod]

Is it out of the question to politely ask fellow musicians in an ensemble to reduce their volume out of respect for a Concertina ?

I wonder whether the Concertina was ever a truly suitable and satisfactory instrument for battling to be heard amongst a variety of other more robust instruments ?

[Greg Jowaisas]

perhaps you are gonna need to get over your wheatstone bias.... as you point out, the characteristics that make wheatstones so exquisite for classical and parlor or kitchen contexts is maybe the very thing that is frustrating you in the band context. i notice there is a metal-ended 60b edeophone mcc at button box just now. they can be very loud and have lots of "cut." i've been wondering myself what it was like. i'm simply hamstrung as to whether to go duet or EC and have been dithering, dithering, dithering, partly because a loud, metal-ended band instrument is eggzackly what i would like rather than a "refined" instrument. i've teetered on the brink of making a wheatstone ec investment, but i seem unable to make a move and for once am listening to my own reticence and keeping my cards off the table for now. i am really quailing at the idea of making a big investment in something that wouldn't be optimal for the uses i'm after.......... i was on the suttner list for what i thought was going to be a 39-key anglo, but now i'm wondering if juergen could make me a "jeffries-construction" 48-button Tenor rather than a wheatstone-based one. wheatstones are great, but i'm starting to face up to the fact that i don't think they really have the sound i'd be looking for....

 

anyhow, perhaps it might be worth having some colloquy with the folks at bb about what kind of lung power that edeophone has and what kind of shape the action is in. you would be buying in euro, and it would be a very fair deal for you. did the late mr. morse himself play maccann? ...let's face it, there aren't many alternatives around for one in your position....ha, i kinda do wish it was mine. but perhaps it is destined to be yours....

My one encounter refurbishing a metal end New Model leads me to believe this might be the concertina for you. (That one went to a session player in Idaho) Responsive enough to play softly but, like throwing a switch, lots of high end cut when pushed. These were the type of Lachenals that the legendary H. Boyd ordered (although his were rumored to involve special attention along with his name worked into the fret tracery.) I believe the ME New Models also came as tenor/trebles, not sure about tenors.

 

Here is one example of the ME New Model sound:

 

 

 

 

I suppose a MacCann ME New Model might turn the trick for Geoff as well.

 

Greg

Edited February 11, 2013 by Greg Jowaisas

[Geoff Wooff]

Is it out of the question to politely ask fellow musicians in an ensemble to reduce their volume out of respect for a Concertina ?

I wonder whether the Concertina was ever a truly suitable and satisfactory instrument for battling to be heard amongst a variety of other more robust instruments ?

I suppose it is not out of the question to ask but some of the instruments I play with (or should that be against) have a fixed sound output volume. One cannot readily turn down the volume of any bagpipe.

 

Some Concertinas are more 'robust' than others... and really I am thinking that my current 'one duet for all occasions' is a compromise too far at each end of the spectrum. So I am looking at the idea of a small loud one for the 'out of the house' jobs and a sweet large one for the Classical adventures at home.