JimLucas Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 ...continuing the thought of modifying the 20b, I remember somebody once had an idea of retuning the entire row of a 20b to the sharps/flats that are missing.Is anyone aware of the success of such an endeavor? How practical is such a layout? Sure, you'd be missing some "across the rows" action & chords, but... Is it an option to consider? I believe that was our member m3838. He hasn't been very active, lately, but you could try asking him. My own recollection was that he was able to get some interesting, even impressive results, but that it didn't create an able-to-do-everything instrument. And I don't recall anyone else saying that they copied him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hjcjones Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Obviously a 30-button and upwards box offers far more options. However William Kimber learned to play on a 20-button and even when he was given a 30-button he seldom if ever used the accidentals. No one could say his playing lacked attack. At entry price levels there is undoubtedly a trade-off which has to be made between the greater flexibility of a 30-button Stagi or Rochelle and a vintage 20-key which offers less flexibility but superior sound. Only the player can decide which is more important to them. I question whether a beginner needs the extra flexibility should they choose to go for the one with better tone. In either case the player will probably want to upgrade if they progress, and it's easy enough to adapt to the extra buttons if they start with a 20-button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harpomatic Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 ...continuing the thought of modifying the 20b, I remember somebody once had an idea of retuning the entire row of a 20b to the sharps/flats that are missing.Is anyone aware of the success of such an endeavor? How practical is such a layout? Sure, you'd be missing some "across the rows" action & chords, but... Is it an option to consider?I believe that was our member m3838. He hasn't been very active, lately, but you could try asking him. My own recollection was that he was able to get some interesting, even impressive results, but that it didn't create an able-to-do-everything instrument. And I don't recall anyone else saying that they copied him. Jim, you are absolutely right, what a memory! It was m3838, now I remember it, too. Such tuning is probably good for melody, not a chord instrument, though. Probably more of hand-pumped chromatic harmonica, though that is one capable instrument in itself. Some heavy retuning, I'm sure, is involved - I don't know if I'd decide to work on C or G row, but inervals are a bit more than i like to retune a reed to. A curiosity, but on the other hand I think i'll stick to my 30b, as the smallest instrument, otherwise my octave tuned 52b chemnitzer is really where it's at, for me. But I don't want to advertize these beautiful instruments too much here, as I still enjoy wonderfully "under-appreciated" market for them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 ...continuing the thought of modifying the 20b, I remember somebody once had an idea of retuning the entire row of a 20b to the sharps/flats that are missing.Is anyone aware of the success of such an endeavor? How practical is such a layout? Sure, you'd be missing some "across the rows" action & chords, but... Is it an option to consider?I believe that was our member m3838. He hasn't been very active, lately, but you could try asking him. My own recollection was that he was able to get some interesting, even impressive results, but that it didn't create an able-to-do-everything instrument. And I don't recall anyone else saying that they copied him. Jim, you are absolutely right, what a memory! It was m3838, now I remember it, too. Such tuning is probably good for melody, not a chord instrument, though. Probably more of hand-pumped chromatic harmonica, though that is one capable instrument in itself. Some heavy retuning, I'm sure, is involved - I don't know if I'd decide to work on C or G row, but inervals are a bit more than i like to retune a reed to. A curiosity, but on the other hand I think i'll stick to my 30b, as the smallest instrument, otherwise my octave tuned 52b chemnitzer is really where it's at, for me. But I don't want to advertize these beautiful instruments too much here, as I still enjoy wonderfully "under-appreciated" market for them... Could you take this somewhere else please? I usually enjoy a good thread drift but it hasn't much to do with whether a beginner could be advised to buy a vintage 20b really, has it, and that was all getting quite interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harpomatic Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) Sorry I drifted so far from inexhaustably ineresting discussion of 20b vs. 30b anglo, hope you can drift back to it... I thouht your "cut off" point, from which "rhetorical" discussion followed, allowed a bit of drifting - but it is "your" thread, I don't want to spoil your joy of rightful ownership... P.S. Has the"drift" anything to do with whether a beginner could be advised to buy a vintage 20b - absolutely! I'm still talking about a 20b, albeit with an alternative tuning, and chemnitzer, last time I looked had "concertina" written on it. "German", I hope you know, is another half of "anglo's" name, sometimes comes as small as London made instruments, at times single reeded, with at least 38 buttons, which is a dream of any anglo player, and can be had for next to nothing. True, shape is rectangular, and reeds are not made in England, along with the remaining methods of construction - but I've seen a rectangular Tedrow, with accordion reeds and still thought of it as a concertina... Great choice for a beginner, if it's not too mind blowing for you, Dirge... Edited January 17, 2013 by harpomatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglo-Irishman Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 ... chemnitzer, last time I looked had "concertina" written on it. "German", I hope you know, is another half of "anglo's" name, sometimes comes as small as London made instruments, at times single reeded, with at least 38 buttons, which is a dream of any anglo player, and can be had for next to nothing. True, shape is rectangular, and reeds are not made in England, along with the remaining methods of construction harpomatic, Several thoughts about what caused your drift: 1. The name of an instrument should never be interpreted as a guarantee for certain characteristics - otherwise a recorder would be something for conserving music, whereas the name really means "keepsake" - which doesn't give any hint to its method of sound production. Even when it says "Concertina" on a large, square box, it's still a Konzertina! The English and German words are etymologically from the same root, but semantically quite different. If the German marketing department deliberately miss-spells the word because they think it will look less foreign to an English-speaking customer, this doesn't alter the actual cahracteristics! 2. The "German" feature of the Anglo-German concertina is the layout of the 20 central buttons - nothing else! The rest of it (including the timbre, which is why we started talking about vintage 20-buttons in the first place) is English. I'm the owner of a small, square German Konzertina "in rheinischer Stimmung" - AKA Bandonoen. It's single reeded, but the reeds are traditional German, with several tongues mounted on one plate. It sounds wonderful, but more like a harmonium than an English-built concertina. It sounds even less like a small Lachenal than a Rochelle or Stagi do! And, although small for a German Konzertina, it's still too heavy to play without support, as DIrge was probably doing with his Maccann when he so impressed that passer-by. So I really don't think this is what he would be looking for - if he were still looking! Cheers, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harpomatic Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 (edited) John, good example of disagreening without being disagreeable, I would like to answer to your post, but the discussion has been spoiled for me by the rudeness of the thread owner... Edited January 17, 2013 by harpomatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 John, good example of disagreening without being disagreeable, I would like to answer to your post, but the discussion has been spoiled for me by the rudeness of the thread owner... What has been "spoiled"? Is it discussing the subject itself, or simply trying to discuss it in this thread? I hope that it's just the latter, and that you would start a new Topic (or resurrect one of several old ones) where you/we could discuss alternate layouts without offending or being offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 John, good example of disagreening without being disagreeable, I would like to answer to your post, but the discussion has been spoiled for me by the rudeness of the thread owner... Some time ago we acquired a very clever troll who did a slow stalk and took a while to spot. Fellow Cnet members; I think we have another one. Harpomatic you'll probably want the last word and you may have it secure in the knowledge that I won't be replying, so go for it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Barnert Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 I remember somebody once had an idea of retuning the entire row of a 20b to the sharps/flats that are missing.Is anyone aware of the success of such an endeavor? Sounds like you're talking about a B/C melodeon. I'm sure someone's tried it with a concertina, but I've never actually heard of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikefule Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 the discussion has been spoiled for me by the rudeness of the thread owner... Excessive thread drift can be frustrating for someone who has asked for advice on a particular subject that is important to them. On the other hand, trying to impose strict rule forbidding thread drift is not really in the spirit of internet forums. Any thread in any forum is a success if it gets half a dozen replies before it starts to drift. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 I remember somebody once had an idea of retuning the entire row of a 20b to the sharps/flats that are missing.Is anyone aware of the success of such an endeavor? Sounds like you're talking about a B/C melodeon. I'm sure someone's tried it with a concertina, but I've never actually heard of it. harpomatic has started a new Topic here to extend this side-discussion. Get the drift? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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