harpomatic Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Friends, I just tried the chromatic button accordion layout, and the beauty of the layout is undeniable. Just curious if you are aware of promising or successful attempts at applying it to a concertina form? I am aware of such bandoneons, although not in any detail as to the success of those models, and also I realize that it would probably not be an easy adaptation, but just wanted to hear some opinions from fellow button aficionados... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ransom Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 You might find the same beauty in the closely related "Chromatiphone" system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harpomatic Posted January 4, 2013 Author Share Posted January 4, 2013 cool indeed. too bad it's so out of my price range... must be fun to play - i find the layout so intuitive, in the concertina package it must be great without all that bulk of an accordion, why is it not the ideal duet configuration? You might find the same beauty in the closely related "Chromatiphone" system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 there have been C-system bandoneons, and those are concertinas. also, the Hayden Duet is kind of "based on" or "analagous to" the C-system CBA. It is not that exact pattern layout, but it is based on that idea.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RatFace Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 The Wheatstone "Double" system is basically the same: http://www.concertina.com/double/index.htm I sold the one I found to Dave Townsend many years ago - he intended to play it, but I don't know what progress he made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 (edited) I am playing Symphonetta - a kind of unisonoric bandoneon with CBA layout. Coming from the English Concertina it was a rather easy way to get into playing melody plus accompaniment. A chance to listen to it or to try it out is the German Concertina Meeting at Proitze! Nils Edited January 4, 2013 by nils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danersen Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 (edited) RE: Chromatiphone system (which is actually Hugo Stark's system developed for unisonoric bandonion), you ask ... "why is it not the ideal duet configuration?" It is! ... unless, of course, one is already accustomed to and comfortable with something else and doesn't need or wish to change. RE: CBA There are numerous obstacles with the application of the CBA system to the concertina mostly related to size - width, really - and scope, but we've been continuing to work on it, and may have a viable/playable instrument competed this year. RE: Hayden system (which is originally Wicki's system) It approximates the Stark and CBA systems but, as typically applied, it is not really the same when playing truly polyphonic music in the accidental or "black" keys. However, ths possibly could be overcome given sufficient room to accommodate enough "extension" of the scope, though it would likely result in a less than compact instrument. RE: Wheatstone Double A very close association, but in practical application, it is "vertical" and the others are "horizontal" in orientation. Edited January 4, 2013 by danersen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 the drawbacks of a cba-type layout for unisonoric concertina or bando, where the thumb is not in play, have gotten plenty of discussion---there is a school of thought that for these type of instruments, bisonoric (provided it is a complete bisonoric furnishing at least one push and at least one draw of all notes) actually offers a player more facility. this view would see the bisonoric bando as better equipped than the unisonoric for chording as well as melody, and i agree--as to the bilateral concertina instruments. i'm just not sure the difference is great enough to really matter---the unisonoric bando virtuosos do just fine, and the bisonoric players, at least the argentine tangueros, are in effect playing "unisonoric" anyhow, by playing largely on the draw and working the heck out of the air button. the EC gets around these issues brilliantly, so long as you don't need full-chordal bass capability or full counterpoint capability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harpomatic Posted January 4, 2013 Author Share Posted January 4, 2013 Interesting information. I would probably like to try "horizontal", chromatiphone system, although the The Wheatstone "Double" seems interesting and maybe just as "ergonomic"... I wonder if it would be an easy conversion from english to The Wheatstone "Double" by just rearranging the reeds inside? This is mostly a curiosity for me, as I am somewhat comfortable with my progress on bisonoric anlo & bandoneons that I have, but having actually put my finers on the CBA layout, can't help to wonder... It's just that I am not tempted at all to go in the "accordion" direction - too large, not symmetrical (even if it's a "free bass" version. Wiki/Hyden is not it from my point of view - not isomorphic, it seems... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harpomatic Posted January 4, 2013 Author Share Posted January 4, 2013 (edited) Do you mean bisonoric or Bisonoric CBA layout? Is there such a thing, as well? the drawbacks of a cba-type layout for unisonoric concertina or bando, where the thumb is not in play, have gotten plenty of discussion---there is a school of thought that for these type of instruments, bisonoric (provided it is a complete bisonoric furnishing at least one push and at least one draw of all notes) actually offers a player more facility. this view would see the bisonoric bando as better equipped than the unisonoric for chording as well as melody, and i agree--as to the bilateral concertina instruments. i'm just not sure the difference is great enough to really matter---the unisonoric bando virtuosos do just fine, and the bisonoric players, at least the argentine tangueros, are in effect playing "unisonoric" anyhow, by playing largely on the draw and working the heck out of the air button. the EC gets around these issues brilliantly, so long as you don't need full-chordal bass capability or full counterpoint capability. I just re-read your post - I think you mean regular bisonoric bandoneon layout - I agree, whatever you're used to will do just fine, in the long run, but the beauty of instant transposition of any line/chord/phrase on CBA is too captivating. I guess it could become a cliche in one's playing to rely on it too much, but in moderation such instant symmetry is amazing to someone (me in this case) who never really had an experience with it. I knew about it (CBA layout) for a long time - it's the tactile pleasure of actually playing the thing, even without any prior experience, that made me wonder about it again. Edited January 4, 2013 by harpomatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted January 4, 2013 Share Posted January 4, 2013 [the beauty of instant transposition of any line/chord/phrase on CBA is too captivating] oh, it's captivating, all right. i play cba. i'm saying, i don't think i'd care for that layout on bando or concertina. i'm aware of the gabler ones and nice that they're working for some folks, but it wouldn't be for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danersen Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 RE: but the beauty of instant transposition of any line/chord/phrase on CBA is too captivating. ...and efficient ...and elegant RE: I guess it could become a cliche in one's playing to rely on it too much, ...I wonder if the Jazz Guitar Masters regard it as cliche RE: but in moderation such instant symmetry is amazing to someone (me in this case) who never really had an experience with it. ...and also to those of us who do - even beyond moderation. RE: I wonder if it would be an easy conversion from english to The Wheatstone "Double" by just rearranging the reeds inside? ...not likely, but I'll leave it to those who are much more informed and experienced to explain the matter of reed chambers, sizes, air flow, reed pan hole positions and corresponding lever locations RE: the drawbacks of a cba-type layout for unisonoric concertina or bando, where the thumb is not in play, ...only if you use your thumb in playing the CBA system. Many - especially the old school masters - don't use their thumb, and in fact, instruct against it. RE: there is a school of thought that for these type of instruments, bisonoric (provided it is a complete bisonoric furnishing at least one push and at least one draw of all notes) actually offers a player more facility. ...with respect, this is utterly irrational in comparison to a fully isomorphic layout RE: this view would see the bisonoric bando as better equipped than the unisonoric for chording as well as melody, and i agree--as to the bilateral concertina instruments. ...huh? RE: i'm just not sure the difference is great enough to really matter---the unisonoric bando virtuosos do just fine, and the bisonoric players, at least the argentine tangueros, are in effect playing "unisonoric" anyhow, by playing largely on the draw and working the heck out of the air button ...in practice, the difference is huge as you don't have to rely on "working the heck our of the air button" as you phrase it (pun intended). That is, the point, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 (edited) i can't reply to all those replies-to-replies, except to say, goody-goody-goody for folks who want to play cba with four fingers. i'm talking about those who have grasped the huge increase in mobility and fluidity with five, not to mention the huge reduction in pinkie pain. cba tune notes in the higher range can fall very heavily on the pinkie. i'm currently rearranging my itm tune fingerings bigtime to relieve (not completely eliminate) the pinkie because the high "B" parts tax it heavily at fast speeds, a problem that did not reveal itself until i started to play cba at ceili clip. if you look at videos of richard galliano, you can sometimes see pinkie-relief strategems being employed. (again--i don't mean pinkie elimination. i mean, pinkie relief.) and for that.....the thumb is a star player. anyway....did that pretty maple wakker hayden sell, or was it withdrawn? saw the post edit, but no "Sold" tag... Edited January 5, 2013 by ceemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danersen Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 (edited) anyway....did that pretty maple wakker hayden sell, or was it withdrawn? saw the post edit, but no "Sold" tag... It sold. Original post was edited as follows: Posted 10 December 2012 - 09:18 AM Now, happily in its new home! 30th Dec 2012 Boarding the plane toward its new home today, 24th Dec. Best wishes to all for a cheerful and meaningful holiday season! Dan This post has been edited by danersen: 30 December 2012 - 06:01 PM Edited January 6, 2013 by danersen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harpomatic Posted January 6, 2013 Author Share Posted January 6, 2013 Guys, thank you for replies - most stimulating. Dan, are you working on a model of such concertina? That wakker is pretty close to how i see it, in terms of ideal. Of course there is no limit on customization/improvement... one can dream.. say 5 rows, etc.. To me, the "concertina" package would seem to be a good thing, but I wonder what ceemonster sees as possible disadvantages over the accordion form. Sure, such concertina may have to be on a larger side than usual, hopefully still smaller than bandoneon - in which case it would still retain its major appeal for me in how "manageable" the thing is. I think I don't need to explain to you fellas here all the (great) things that make concertinas distinct from accordions... However, negative points of view, especially coming from experience (any, compared to"0" of mine with CBA)are also illuminating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 (edited) [the "concertina" package would seem to be a good thing, but I wonder what ceemonster sees as possible disadvantages over the accordion form. Sure, such concertina may have to be on a larger side than usual, hopefully still smaller than bandoneon - in which case it would still retain its major appeal for me in how "manageable" the thing is.] i don't see concertina as disadvantaged over accordion. i love concertina. i'm just saying, i personally find "c-system layout" more of a brilliant fit for accordion than for bilateral button instruments like concertina or bando-concertina....the "peguri" and "modified peguri" layouts whose names i now can't recall, that are used on unisonoric bandos, have elements of c-system, and for me that wouldn't be optimal. but olivier manoury and his student or protege guillaume sabatier don't have any complaints... i have cds by both of those guys and they are wonderful....i believe the cba maestro Richard Galliano also plays unisonoric bando. plus, there are unisonoric bandos designed to actually play with your hands wrapped around the front so you are essentially playing flat c-system accordion on both sides, that is is the gabbler unisonoric bandon harry geuns makes, and people are doing gorgeous things with that as well.......so there you are. it's my subjective taste.... Edited January 6, 2013 by ceemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harpomatic Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 i know you didn't mean concertina is disadvantaged, and thank you for explaining your points of view, especially since you play both instruments. Certainly, I can see logic to both forms - accordion & concertina, and all those in between. For me, the bulk of accordion, and a-symmetric hands always turn me back to concertina... Though maybe I should reconsider that with some small CBA or bayan. And it is true that whatever one is comfortable with is the best thing. But also, I can see myself getting comfortable with a "dream instrument" of 5 rows (3 + 2 duplicates, like in CBA), 4 octaves span, smaller than bandoneon, ok if somewhat larger than regular anglo. That Wakker looks very much like it, what a beauty of craftsmanship! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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