FlangoKomodo Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 Hi It's Lucio from Milano, Italy I'd like to start playing on a duet and I think a modular system like the hayden one would be better for the fact that I'm already a musician (and also because of the similarities with the button accordion), but as I see I definitely can't afford the high-end ones and the entry level ones (in fact quite expensive too) have a bad reputation,sound, weight or playability(like Stagi) or missing notes (like the concertina connection ones: with only two missing notes i cannot play in Gminor, Cminor, Bb and so on). So there are no 2000ish decent solutions? are they coming? How about the morse hayden, the marcus or this legendary russian-made one? (i saw that one and would be perfect for me, are they still developing the project or not?) Is some solution incoming or do I have to resign myself? Thanks,Lucio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) you're not gonna get a hayden for $2000-ish unless you purchase a stagi, which will be less. the wakker hybrid hayden, titled the "Peacock," ranges from a basic model for $2450 to a custom wood-ends model at $3350, and the forthcoming morse will no doubt be in the mid-to-high-$2k-or-$3k-ish range. there is a nice Wakker Hayden WH-1 model for sale on this site right now, if the listing i've linked below here is still current. this is not a hybrid, but a concertina-reeded hayden. it does have the hayden slant, not the parallel wicki layout......i've been eyeing it myself, but have spent the last year dithering as to whether my venture into unisonoric should start with EC or hayden, and had kinda thought i was set on EC for now, but this listed instrument does look like a nice way to break in to hayden if that's what you're after....... http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14979 Edited December 21, 2012 by ceemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 There is also the new hybrid model from Wakker concertinas; The "Peacock" a 42 key Hayden/Wikki at $2500 USA. it is the middle of the road model and can be checked out at www.concertinaconnection.com I do hope you find a decent instrument to get your teeth into! Good luck, Geoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) a note about "missing notes" the missing notes are only a couple of low bass root notes, way i see it. you've got 'em all the rest of the way up the range. when bass-vamping in the keys you're worried about, you'd probly be able to arrange around that problem most of the time. use a fifth or a third as the bass and then inversions for your chordal vamps.....? Edited December 21, 2012 by ceemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlangoKomodo Posted December 22, 2012 Author Share Posted December 22, 2012 a note about "missing notes" the missing notes are only a couple of low bass root notes, way i see it. you've got 'em all the rest of the way up the range. when bass-vamping in the keys you're worried about, you'd probly be able to arrange around that problem most of the time. use a fifth or a third as the bass and then inversions for your chordal vamps.....? Mmmmm, as I see in the Elise fingering chart there is NO Gsharp and Dsharp, no one. Yes i can manage to play anyway but i feel this like a bit ridicolous on a so called "cromatic" instrument. (I also think that such a little number of keys does not give justice to the hayden system,making maybe mentally more simple but not so faster for the fingers) http://www.concertinaconnection.com/elise%20keyboard.htm There is also the new hybrid model from Wakker concertinas; The "Peacock" a 42 key Hayden/Wikki at $2500 USA. it is the middle of the road model and can be checked out at www.concertinaconnection.com 2500 for 42k? ouch the Russian one was supposed to be sold around 2000-2500 no? with 65 keys....wooooow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) It is my experience that you get what you pay for; a cheap new instrument is worth nothing second hand so this can work out as an expensive experiment unless it is a type of instrument that you already play well and you just buy a cheap instrument to use up, like a battery, and throw it away when you have done with it. If you buy a 'proper' instrument of good make and of high reputation then you have just invested your money.. when you no longer need it.. find you do not get on with playing that type of thing... then you can sell it and get most of your money back... sometimes even make a small profit on your investment. It is up to you. It is very true that the rich people spend less money.. they buy clothes that last forever, food that has proper vitamins and calories... instruments that hold their value. Poor people are just that POOR, and need to be very carefull how they use their resources.... I'm one of those myself. A duet with 65 keys is worth having I agree and the idea of the Hayden/Wikki keyboard is very tempting with its same scales paterns and chord shapes for each key... but although the shapes and finger movements stay the same they do move around the keyboard quite a bit and get more complicated towards the edges. So one has to 'know where to start' for each key change and therefore you have to remember what each buttons does, just as on any instrument. The lack of availability made me re-think my desires for the Hayden Duet and couple of years ago and I went with the Maccann.. but if I was starting today I would consider the Peacock as a reasonable point of entry for the Hayden... Edited December 22, 2012 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inventor Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 In the latest just published WCCP (West Country Concertina Players) Newsletter one member is advertising a traditionally made Connor Hayden Duet. I know this concertina and the owner, and know that it has been carefully looked after. Inventor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) There is also the new hybrid model from Wakker concertinas; The "Peacock" a 42 key Hayden/Wikki at $2500 USA. it is the middle of the road model and can be checked out at www.concertinaconnection.com 2500 for 42k? ouch the Russian one was supposed to be sold around 2000-2500 no? with 65 keys....wooooow That was several years ago. The price would almost certainly be higher today. But for reasons that no longer matter (what's done is done), the Russian one never went into production, so the comparison isn't really relevant. $60 per button ($2500/42 to the nearest dollar) may be more expensive than vintage duets generally go for, but -- as should be expected -- it's pretty much in line with other modern quality "hybrids", and well below what all but the cheapest vintage anglos go for. I think a more relevant issue is whether those 42 buttons give you enough of the right notes to satisfy you musically, at least until you're ready to upgrade. (How possible it is to upgrade has been noted as another issue.) E.g., in my judgement, a standard 35-button Crane duet is a reasonable "starter" instrument, but in a standard Maccann I would want at least a 46. My reasons are chromaticity and the ranges of the two hands. The 42-button Peacock layout looks pretty reasonable to me, though I do wish it weren't missing the lowest C# and D# in each hand. ... a cheap new instrument is worth nothing second hand.... I think this should be qualified. While a second hand "cheap Chinese" may indeed be worth "nothing", or next to it, doesn't a used Jackie/Rochelle/Elise usually go for at least half the original price? A duet with 65 keys is worth having I agree and the idea of the Hayden/Wikki keyboard is very tempting with its same scales patterns and chord shapes for each key... Although I don't disagree with your reasoning, I'd like to present (not for the first time) a different view of the uniformity: If the shapes are the same for all keys, then a shape or sequence which is awkward in one key can be expected (unfortunately) to be awkward in all keys. However, if the geometric layout differs from key to key, then it may be possible to find a key in which it's more comfortable to play the otherwise unaltered note sequence or chord. Edited December 22, 2012 by JimLucas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 ... a cheap new instrument is worth nothing second hand.... I think this should be qualified. While a second hand "cheap Chinese" may indeed be worth "nothing", or next to it, doesn't a used Jackie/Rochelle/Elise usually go for at least half the original price? Well Jim, half price might be like "next to nothing" for some people , still a big loss, but yes my statement was a bit broad brushed. Perhaps I am, justifiably, jealous of those starting out on their concertina journey today when there are so many good instruments being produced, so many restorers, so much (maybe too much) information available. Compared to the start that many of us had 40 odd years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) i'll confess, about a year ago, i sent for a chinese-made full-48 EC. i wanted to try a full-48, not the truncated jackie/jack, even though i really like the way they sound. well, this thing sounded and looked just like a jackie/jack, but with a full-48. i guess it served its purpose in that it did decide me on wanting to embark on an ec adventure. but the thing was really, really problematic for the almost-$400 bucks i paid for it. One: for about three months, the middle "white-key" column notes performed pretty darn well, the way people say jackies/jacks do. but the outer, enharmonic column notes sounded only with great strain on the tendons, and some would hardly play at all. Two: the button action on two or three notes broke down after about three months. Three: the bellows were coated in a vile, highly toxic solvent of some kind that literally made me feel sick. i'm serious. i'm afraid the thing is carcinogenic and i never touch it now. so in one way, it served its purpose. but in another way, i felt like i had just thrown the money out in the street. how much worse it is than the jacks/jackies is anybody's guess. sometimes when people start marveling over them, you do see others weigh in with cautionaries to the effect of---look, they're really hard to play and need a lot of fixing. there is even a manual or tutorial or something on how to fix them. so perhaps the one i bought was in effect a jack, but with 48 buttons....the best thing about it was, it sounded eggzackly like a treble jackie, and i really love that voice personality. but i still feel silly.;; Edited December 22, 2012 by ceemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted December 22, 2012 Share Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) [Mmmmm, as I see in the Elise fingering chart there is NO Gsharp and Dsharp, no one.] oh, sorry---i thought you were talking about missing notes on the concertina connection's "Peacock" model. that one IS missing just a coupla bass notes that i think one could arrange around. and i agree with the comment above that the Peacock seems like a reasonable entry config. actually, one might prefer an accordion-reeded duet for stuff like tango and french. tedrow does a 52-button. but it is a good $2k more expensive than the Peacock. yes, i agree about the elise. too few, wouldn't want to go there. feel the same about the jack/jackies--not enough notes for the expenditure. i do love the squawky sound of the reeds in them. i'd like a hybrid with high-end TAM reeds with a faster, more responsive, bigger version of that same sound. some of the cheaper czech reeds sound like that, and i really like it, but want a better-performing reed. interesting. and now i'm wandering, i know....this irish-made hybrid offers your CHOICE of two different TAM reeds with different vocal characters. brass shoes versus aluminum shoes. i think all the hybrid makers should give us our choice (that is, the ones who offer TAM reeds, morse does not--one of their reasons, interestingly, is they say they don't prefer the "brighter" TAM sound). i want/need a bright, loud squawker for dance/band/session playing... http://allaboutaccordions.com/allabout-product.php?parent_id=239 Edited December 22, 2012 by ceemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewVanitas Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 (edited) yes, i agree about the elise. too few, wouldn't want to go there. feel the same about the jack/jackies--not enough notes for the expenditure. i do love the squawky sound of the reeds in them... It's my very rough impression that the folks most pleased with their Elise's tend to be players of the more stripped-down Trad styles, and/or who do vocal accompaniment or similar. I wouldn't want to try to keep up with a fast jig using just my right hand, but for playing a slow air, doing an instrumental melody of a ballad between sung verses, or just playing backing chords and ornaments while singing, they can really serve. Also those sort of folks don't tend to fret the missing D# and G#. I wouldn't mind being able to play in A, but I don't feel hamstrung by its lack. Similarly there are few non-Western tunes I do that call for a few irregular chromatics, and I have to play towards the middle of the keyboard to make sure I have enough extra keys on the margins, but for the kind of music I do it's little hassle. I wouldn't at all suggest an Elise for Classical or jazz, but I've been really quite pleased with it for what I do. Oh, and as to the "squawk", I'm actually thinking of making some homemade baffles to mellow the sound of mine for singing. Horses for courses, I suppose. interesting. and now i'm wandering, i know....this irish-made hybrid offers your CHOICE of two different TAM reeds with different vocal characters. brass shoes versus aluminum shoes. i think all the hybrid makers should give us our choice (that is, the ones who offer TAM reeds, morse does not--one of their reasons, interestingly, is they say they don't prefer the "brighter" TAM sound). i want/need a bright, loud squawker for dance/band/session playing... http://allaboutaccordions.com/allabout-product.php?parent_id=239 Dangit, you got me all excited thinking these cats were offering a new Hayden. I will say though, I am rather interested to hear of a box of such specs that sells so low as £450 oh snap, that's Euros. In that case, at €450 I'm definitely very curious on general principle, though a bit incredulous as to how they're getting all those nice things in at that price. And again I'm mistaken; the fancy one is €1850, the €450 one is a beginner model that I can only assume is a properly QC'ed/tweaked China-made box, which could still be a good thing. In fairness, that page linked is not at all easy to read, especially with all the capital letters and bouncing between columns. But I definitely would love to see them come out with a Hayden too, either beginner level or the nice one. But I reckon Hayden is not particularly popular in Ireland... Edited January 9, 2013 by MatthewVanitas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Łukasz Martynowicz Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 If I may add something on the matter of cheap Haydens. When you look on the accordion world, you can choose your instrument from an at least "three dimensional space" of availability: by the type of an accordion, by the number of melody/bass notes and by the quality of sound/worksmanship. So, e.g. you can get a cheap russian bayan that will have a huge range, will let you learn and practice all the music you want but won't have any registers and will be f.. ugly. In the whole concertina world (and that is most true for Haydens), apart for a range of chinese instruments, you always get best possible quality and and (almost) steady $-per-button rate. So if you "run out of buttons" you can only buy an instrument from much higher price range... I can be wrong on this, but isn't it one of the main reasons, why concertinas aren't as popular as they could be? As probably everyone can see, there is quite a lot of concertina videos on youtube, much of these are made by amateurs on cheap chinese or old german anglos. I know, that the market for Haydens (and all concertinas) is limited, but this is a closed loop - you can try Hayden only with an Elise, which is a very limited instrument... I live in Poland, and concertina is one of the most exotic free-reed instruments here - but when talking to people who like the sound of it, the first thing they talk about is how better it is over an accordion with its size, weight and portability. From my point of view, there is a huge price gap between Elise and next-in-line Stagi and the perfect solution would be a "full" 46 key instrument made to little more than Elise standards (I think of bushed keys, because I had to change those buzzing plastic originals...) with a price around $600-700 (calculated from Elise price tag on $/button basis), just to build up the market for professional models. But, said that, I'm not into bussiness and I don't know what is the overall demand for concertinas of any kind or price... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 (edited) [ I can be wrong on this, but isn't it one of the main reasons, why concertinas aren't as popular as they could be?] i don't think you're wrong. i can't find the thread right this minute, but it has been endlessly and vociferously debated here. i'm of the school that they would and should be way more popular, and that the price-point issue is the big stickler. you can get incredibly playable guitars, for example, for well under $1,000. i experience it almost as a personal affront that concertinas are so expensive, but expensive they are. to be fair, the price of all free reed instruments, accordions and concertinas, at all quality levels, has just gone up and up and up over the last 10 years or so. it is worst with concertinas, but they've all gone up. i play a compact 60-bass hohner nova II 60A model CBA with reeds and parts made in west germany, assembled in asia, that is absolutely wonderful for its price, which was somewhere around 1100-1200 (the price of this model has risen a chunk since my purchase, btw). ok, the buttons are falling off, but it is responsive, fast, lovely-sounding. but let's say i want to "upgrade" to a saltarelle chaville--roughly same dimensions, weight, and buttons, also a compact 60-bass, beautiful wood chassis and TAM reeds. well, in US dollars that is going to cost me five grand. for TAM. not "true hand-made" reeds, or "blue-line handmade," or whatever they call it. TAM. when you look at it that way, a lovely wood accordion-reeded Wakker Hayden 42-button or Morse Beaumont Hayden 52-button, (i'm going to assume here that both either come with TAM reeds standard or offer them as an option for not too high of a premium but you'd have to check that one), at $2600-$3500 for the Wakker depending on whether you want extra-nice bellows and/or custom wood; and at $3800 for the Morse, are not way out of whack with the larger scheme of free-reed instrument costs. the hayden, while very expensive, is going to be less than the CBA, as it should be since concertinas, magical as they are, do less musically and fill a dance hall less than the CBA. so, yes, the prices are very high, but it is part of a bigger picture. is life fair in this respect? no, it's not, but this is the reality. Edited April 2, 2013 by ceemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
judyhawkins Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 A very brief opinion: it's just plain more expensive to squash all those buttons and action and reeds into a little, light, portable box. People don't seem to expect "portability" from an accordion as much... not to mention a (wood and wire) piano. So the prices per button are just that much higher on the smaller, lighter, more portable box, even for the "cheap" ones. The original hope was to make a Morse concertina for under $1000, but the people making it still needed to do that daily meal thing, roof over the head, all that cost of living stuff. So it didn't work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 (edited) Putting on my Musical Instrument maker's hat; I have to agree with Judy that first one makes a good instrument, without any 'too far' compromises.. after that the price has to reflect a fair wage for the job. It looks as if that is what the good people at R.Morse & Co. have done and to my mind the price is certainly not too high. One question for Judy; I was drawing out the Beaumont keyboard, full size, so that I could get an idea of the stretch involved with some of the notes from one side to the other ( Bb to G# for instance ). This looks like a wide keyboard, coming from the English I found the Maccann a good step wider.... So, I have used the spacings garnered from Brian Hayden's writtings where he states 16mm centre distance of Buttons along the rows and rows are 9mm appart... is this the current spacing that you have used ? Also when he says rows are 9mm appart I assume he also means ' buttoncentre ' distance measured vertically. My keyboard plan looks smaller 'on paper' than I expected... Geoff. Edited June 2, 2013 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Barnert Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 So, I have used the spacings garnered from Brian Hayden's writtings where he states 16mm centre distance of Buttons along the rows and rows are 9mm appart... is this the current spacing that you have used ? I didn't measure it, but it felt right. Also when he says rows are 9mm appart I assume he also means ' buttoncentre ' distance measured vertically. By Pythagoras' theorem, buttons 16 mm apart horizontally and rows 9 mm apart (centre line to centre line) vertically would yield a diagonal distance of the square root of 145. This is 12.041594579, which is close enough to 12, which Brian gives as the diagonal distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inventor Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 (edited) The 9mm between the rows is measured at a right angle to the lines through the centres of the buttons. If the rows have the slant that I reccomend then obviously measured at right angles to the hand rest this will be a little more. No doubt Mr Pythagoras will work it out for you if you really want to know. The distance between buttons on English, Crane and Maccann above each other is usually 10mm, which makes it dificult to make the buttons any larger than 4mm dia. With the distance of 12mm between the buttons you can make the buttons somewhat more comfortable size - 6mm or 6.35mm in the case of the Beaumont. This is a big advantage when you wish to play two adjacent buttons with one finger. Every (or almost every on the smaller instruments) Fourth and Fifth available on the instrument may be played with one finger. So far as I know all Hayden Duets, with the exception of Stagi's, are made to the 16mm, 9mm, 12(+)mm standard. Inventor Edited June 4, 2013 by inventor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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