20 button in d/g?

[David Colpitts]

Hello, all.

 

I am 3 months into my Anglo habit, and while trying to assimilate all the good cross-row advice and simple practice, find myself still mostly playing along the rows in home keys on my old g/c 30 button Stagi. A local "old-timey" group plays lots of fiddle, and lots of "D" and I am feeling pulled toward a "starter" Stagi in D/G. I can only afford (by liquidating an A/D Pokerwork accordion) a 20 button, and essentially wonder: Will a 20-button let me play as I have come to, in home keys/rows, as I do now, and easily open up the key of D for me, instantly? So far, I virtually never touch the third row. My main "repertoire" is "Americana," with folk, hynms, and similar harmonic stuff (as I have played for so many years on harmonicas.) Or in other words, can anyone advise/refer me to the "greats" of 20 button play? BTW, the new Stagi in question would be professionally prepped by the good folk at the ButtonBox.

 

As always, any and all guidance will be appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

David

[BlueJack]

Don't leave the C/G. Once you start using the third row it will open up a whole new range of music. After that, learning how to transpose to the keys you have available on the 30 button C/G will make you a happy squeezer. I know, I almost did the same thing. Whew, close call, that!

 

Jack

[Mikefule]

Depending on quite what you mean by "Americana" I'd say don't limit yourself in this way. I have a small repertoire of American tunes and most of them need notes that aren't there on my 30 button, never mind a 20 button.

[Marien]

If you play the melody - one drawback for a G/D could be that the notes are lower.

I would consider to make or take a D/A concertina (one note higher than a C/G).

you may need some more reeds...

 

edited for typos

Edited December 17, 2012 by marien

[David Colpitts]

Thanks to all for responses so far....I think I sense the pattern; there is no free lunch, and my search for approval to cut corners is, well, just that...I did read a thread on modifying the third row to provide a "home" D, but that was on a more-buttoned box, I think. Any percentage in that?

 

 

Regarding "not enough buttons" for tunes...I am not finding any trouble with the range available, so long as I play it like two harmonicas. I have tried again to cross-row a simple D scale via a tutorial, and admit it is possible; I just struggle, and can't seem to wrap my brain around the notion that every key needs to be played differently than every other, save the "home" keys which are played the same. I once used the analogy of "cross harp" on the harmonica, but now realize (with help from you kind folk) that that was wrong. Rather, it seems to me now, more like playing a chromatic harmonica, which can technically play in any and all keys, but which to me was always played in C, with the odd accidental when necessary. In fact, they make chromatics in many keys, presumably for the "challenged" like me.

 

One more paraphrasing of my question: Is there anyone out there you might recommend who has similarly been limitted to home keys, along the rows, but still managed to achieve some sort of fluency so as to (at least) play along in a group, when the keys available are appropriate?

 

Thanks again, and regards,

 

David

[michael sam wild]

stick to C/G. Check out Bertram Levy's new CD and his tutor book on Old Timey Amercan music. He has a Stagi he likes.

[Ken_Coles]

Years ago I went to my first intensive concertina class. On the first day the teacher wrote out scales in G and D on a diagram of the C/G keyboard and told me to go learn the patterns by repeating them over and over. It only took a couple of hours of practice, and they were in my head and fingers. It wasn't an intellectual process; it was rote muscle memory (and believe me, as a college teacher, I habitually intellectualize things without even realizing I'm doing it). I came to the next class and started on tunes in D and G (on C/G concertina). I never looked back, though I eventually learned and used additional patterns. The pattern doesn't have to make sense, your muscles just have to learn it.

 

G/D isn't necessarily easier; you just already know where the scales are along the rows. So once you find the scales on an instrument and learn them by feel....it could open the door. It is the only way I've progressed on the various instruments I've tried over the years. Your mileage may vary, but it is worth a try! Don't forget to have fun, too.

 

IIRC Emery Hutchins in New England plays along the rows, and very well, too (he has a C/G and a D/A, and switches to stay in home keys).

 

Ken

[Anglo-Irishman]

I have tried again to cross-row a simple D scale via a tutorial, and admit it is possible; I just struggle, and can't seem to wrap my brain around the notion that every key needs to be played differently than every other, save the "home" keys which are played the same.

 

David,

 

The beauty of the Anglo - especially for folks like you and me, who started with the harmonica - is the instinctive "blow-suck" or "press-draw" pattern that yields the scale on the home rows. I don't know how your particular tutor recommends you to play the scale of D on a 30-button C/G, but my standard scale of D major just reverses the "press-draw" pattern of the home rows.

The scales of C and G are: "press, draw, press, draw, press, draw, draw, press".

The scale of D is: "draw, press, draw, press, draw, press, press, draw".

 

In all cases, this keeps the notes that are in the tonic chord in one bellows direction, and the notes in the subdominant or dominant chords in the other direction. Admittedly, "my" scale of D major calls for a change of button and a change of bellows direction at the same time for some of the steps of the scale, but simply reversing the "press-draw" pattern is easier (for me) to grasp than having a totally different pattern. I manage to find the right buttons somehow.

 

I must admit that practically all the pieces I play in D are melody-only, as part of an ensemble. I've never really got to grips with harmonised playing in D. I only harmonise when playing solo or accompanying my own singing, were I get to choose the key, and C along the row is just as good as, and easier than, trying it in D.

 

Cheers,

John

[Chris Timson]

I will add a counter view and say that although I had played the C/G anglo for years and still use it for song accompaniment, the concertina never really opened up for me as a session instrument until I got my first G/D. I don't know so much about old timey but it suits English music like a glove, especially once you've embraced what Dan Worrall calls the "double Z" approach to playing across the rows on the right hand. The great strength of this approach, apart from its intuitive rightness, is that it allows you to play the melody on the right hand while playing chords or parallel octaves on the left.

 

Get a G/D - you know it makes sense!

 

Chris

[David Colpitts]

I will add a counter view and say that although I had played the C/G anglo for years and still use it for song accompaniment, the concertina never really opened up for me as a session instrument until I got my first G/D. I don't know so much about old timey but it suits English music like a glove, especially once you've embraced what Dan Worrall calls the "double Z" approach to playing across the rows on the right hand. The great strength of this approach, apart from its intuitive rightness, is that it allows you to play the melody on the right hand while playing chords or parallel octaves on the left.

 

Get a G/D - you know it makes sense!

 

Chris

[David Colpitts]

Thanks for the most recent three replies. Ken, I'll continue to try, and appreciate the tip regarding Emery. Anglo-Irishman, I will try the "simplified" scale for D, and Chris, I am gratified to hear that someone more knowledgeable than I thinks "G/D makes sense." It seems to me that an instantly available, already intuitive "fistfull of chords" is worth the price of admission. Now, Chris (and anyone else), what about the limitations of the 20 button for simple folk music (such as I can already play on the c/g rows? My impulse is to add the currently affordable 20 button Stagi g/d, and alternate between it and my (paid-for) 30 button c/g. Ergo, a 30 button to "grow" with and a 20-button to play with now in D?

 

Thanks again to all you good folk. What a nice crowd to cyber-hang-out-with!

 

Regards,

 

David

[Chris Timson]

The main restrictions of any 20-button are 1) you miss accidentals like G# and Bb that do pop up from time to time, certainly in English Tunes like Waterloo Dance and Jump at the Sun; 2) some chords are thinner or more difficult to achieve on the 20 button, which misses some very handy notes on the left hand; 3) you miss useful reverses that can come in handy. For instance in the tune LNB Polka in the fast triplets in the B music I find the D/E reverse on the left hand invaluable.

 

These restrictions aren't too problematic when you're learning but as you get better you will eventually find yourself looking for a 30 button. However a 20 button G/D makes a very good starter instrument IMHO.

 

Here is how I would play the keys of G and D on a G/D anglo (whatever the button count). You might wish to refer to this page in the Concertina FAQ, G/D keyboard layouts. The first diagram, for 30 button Wheatstone G/D is easiest to follow.

 

For the key of G I start on the first/leftmost button of the right hand G row (middle row on a 30, outer row on a 20). Push G (index finger), then second button pull A, push B (middle finger), then third button pull C, push D (third finger). THEN move to the D row second button pull E, push F# (middle finger), stay on the D row, third button pull g (middle finger).

 

For the key of D I start on the rightmost button of the left hand G row (yes, I know that sounds unintuitive, but it really works). Push D, pull E (left hand index finger). Now go to the right hand, staying on the G row. Pull F#, push G (index finger), then second button pull A, push B (middle finger). THEN move to the D row first button, pull C#, push D (index finger). Now continue up the D row in the normal way.

 

You will see that in both cases the scale follows a Z shape across the G and D rows. This has the huge advantage of keeping the melody almost entirely on the right hand. Normally you only ever go over to the left for the low D or E. With your left hand free you can now play chords or play parallel octaves or any combination thereof that takes your fancy.

 

Dan Worrall's name the double Z refers to the fact that you can play melody on the left hand using a similar approach (describing a Z pattern across the G and D rows) and this is the basis of playing in octaves, a fundamental English approach to playing the anglo which was once also popular in Ireland (it was, in fact Irish players who gave playing in octaves the name I most like of 'double noting').

 

Hope that's clear. Please ask questions if not.

 

Chris

Edited December 20, 2012 by Chris Timson

[David Colpitts]

Thanks, Chris. I'll try that when I get my g/d. As luck would have it, Button Box has not gotten the shipment they expected, so I am on hold now until after the New Year.

 

Regards,

 

David

[David Colpitts]

And, I guess I meant "G/D"

 

David

[Daniel Hersh]

And, I guess I meant "G/D"

 

David

Chris Algar, of all people. just listed one of these on eBay.

[Dave Weinstein]

Every once in a while you can get a vintage 20 button G/D.

 

My first concertina was a 20 button Lachenal that had been tuned from Ab/Eb to G/D.

 

--Dave

[Dan Worrall]

Hello, all.

 

I am 3 months into my Anglo habit, and while trying to assimilate all the good cross-row advice and simple practice, find myself still mostly playing along the rows in home keys on my old g/c 30 button Stagi. A local "old-timey" group plays lots of fiddle, and lots of "D" and I am feeling pulled toward a "starter" Stagi in D/G. I can only afford (by liquidating an A/D Pokerwork accordion) a 20 button, and essentially wonder: Will a 20-button let me play as I have come to, in home keys/rows, as I do now, and easily open up the key of D for me, instantly? So far, I virtually never touch the third row. My main "repertoire" is "Americana," with folk, hynms, and similar harmonic stuff (as I have played for so many years on harmonicas.) Or in other words, can anyone advise/refer me to the "greats" of 20 button play? BTW, the new Stagi in question would be professionally prepped by the good folk at the ButtonBox.

 

As always, any and all guidance will be appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

David

 

Interesting cornucopia of varied responses!

 

Some are clearly from folks with a strong Irish background. If you want to play fast reels and you listen to a lot of modern Irish players, I agree that CG is clearly the way to go; best to get a three row.

And then Bertram Levy has developed a new method for three row Anglo in American "old timey" fiddle music that, similar to modern Irish approaches, eschews the old push-pull feel in order to play more fluidly and faster. If you want to sound like this - and Bertram's CD is very well worth checking out - then get a three row CG.

 

If you are going to stick with a two row, and like playing harmonica-style (along the row), as you note, then don't feel at all lost at using a two row, and if your friends play in D a lot, then a GD is a fine choice. Always remember that perhaps 98% of the concertinas played during the instrument's heyday (1860s-1910) were two rows (German concertinas outsold anglos nearly 100 to 1, and even a lot of anglos sold were two rows). This idea of 'old-timey' (meaning old time American fiddle tunes, mostly) needing to be played in a modern three row cross-fingered way has come up before, and it is a nice way to play - but is not the way the old timers played, for sure. Not everyone has to play in the modern ways, and I note that you want to play a lot of hymns and folk songs with harmonica-like chords...that will be very fine on a two row.

 

Chris Timson's comments about cross-rowing in Zs is good information. The old players in Australia, SOuth Africa, England and Ireland nearly all played either in variants of that or more simply along the row when playing the main dance tunes of the day, which were waltzes, polkas, schottisches and the like.

 

Try to find Alan Day's free anglo tutor and recordings; it goes very well with a two row and seems to be a good match with the mix of music that you seem to be heading toward.

There are also some good Boeremusiek two row tutorials on Youtube that use a similar chorded two row style, but in the SOuth African manner. Well worth searching for.

And if you want to hear a lot of old archival recordings of very old-time players playing mostly two rows in both along-the-row and double Z octave styles, you might look up my CDRom book, House Dance, which has a couple of hundred old time recordings.

And if you get to the point of wanting to play fast Irish reels, remember that a lot of great old Irish players played (and play) in basically along-the-row styles. William Mullaly played almost his entire repertoire in the 1920s on just a a D row (still not settled whether it was a GD or a DA, but the main thing is that he played nearly everything along-the-row on just a D row!). I haven't heard anyone complaining about his playing, and it would go just fine on a two row GD. Check out his CD, for sale at the ITMA in Dublin. Some great liner notes on his technique.

 

Above all, have fun!

[David Colpitts]

Thanks for the most recent replies. I don't yet understand multi-quote, so please excuse clumsiness. I intend to check with Chris A. regarding shipping and insurance to the US, but suspect I'll be waiting for the Button Box shipment to arrive early next year. Meanwhile, I have the Alan Day tutorial, and will look at the B. Levy stuff and the CD you recommended, Dan. And, Dan, thanks for the words of encouragement and corroboration that not all need play in the "modern way." I feel less self-conscious about my character flaw (treating the concertexina like a pair of harmonicas) and will forge ahead (sideways?) with exploration of what seems natural and comfortable to me and my brain. However, I will absolutely try to expand. I am merely 3 1/2 months into what feels like a now-lifetime addiction, after all.