what is the smallest 30b anglo size?

[Marien]

I was wondering - what is the smallest possible size for a 30b concertina?

Jones already made small size anglos with 20 buttons with individual reed frames.

Looking at the Marcus traveller it's 5 inches across flats, with 22 buttons.

Can it be done to put a complete C/G 30b in the same size of concertina - or even smaller?

[RP3]

The Dipper Clare model is one of the smallest 30 b models at 5-5/8" but I remember a couple of friends having 30 b Lachenals that may have been smaller. I do remember the latter were too small for my hands but the Dipper is not. And I don't remember if the Lachenals were even C/Gs? The real limiting factors are chamber and reed sizes. To stay in the C/G range, you can only get them so small.

 

While your question may have been exclusively academic, from a practical standpoint an Anglo smaller than the Clare model would likely be very difficult for most players to manage. Just not enough room for the button spacing to serve normal size hands, and I's hate to be the guy bending and installing the levers and springs!!

 

Ross Schlabach

[Marien]

The Dipper Clare model is one of the smallest 30 b models at 5-5/8" but I remember a couple of friends having 30 b Lachenals that may have been smaller. I do remember the latter were too small for my hands but the Dipper is not. And I don't remember if the Lachenals were even C/Gs? The real limiting factors are chamber and reed sizes. To stay in the C/G range, you can only get them so small.

 

While your question may have been exclusively academic, from a practical standpoint an Anglo smaller than the Clare model would likely be very difficult for most players to manage. Just not enough room for the button spacing to serve normal size hands, and I's hate to be the guy bending and installing the levers and springs!!

 

Ross Schlabach

 

Ross,

 

It makes sense, good point about the hand size. My question was from an interest to play a very small anglo concertina - as a gadget to impress audience that it is possible to make "real music" out it. A smaller concertina may be equipped with unfoldable extention hand rests to increase playability. So to me it seems that - like you mention - the reed size of the set c/g reeds that should fit into the reed pan.

[RP3]

For the purpose you mentioned, some of the miniature concertinas would fill the bill. While they are small and have less than 30 buttons, they are fully capable of playing music. Noel Hill plays a very small Jeffries miniature Anglo. Of course miniatures are pitched in higher octaves and usually only have enough notes to support playing in one key, but they can make fabulous music and are quite challenging to play. These do come up for sale from time to time with differing sizes and number of keys.

 

Randy Merris has compiled an interesting history on miniatures but I don't know if it has been published yet. You could check with him on through this website to see where to access it.It may be on ICA. Randy could also be a good contact for where to find one to buy.

 

Ross Schlabach

[Chris Ghent]

It is hard to imagine there could be a fully functional 30key instrument smaller than the 5" Lachenal instrument owned by Greg J. The concertina has a number of clever compromises to allow it to be so small, most notably the square pad holes ( more square area for the same width) and scaled reeds.

[Frank Edgley]

I haven't done any work on true miniatures. (less than 5") However, I have played a couple. I found them difficult to play. Not from the standpoint of fingering difficulties due to size, but due to the fact that the bellows run out very quickly. It would seem to make sense.....smaller bellows = less air capacity. Miniatures are, in my opinion, more of a gimmick than anything else. What is the real purpose? Surely not to improve the quality of the musical performance..... Do they sound better than standard instruments.....play better.....or look cuter?

[Rod]

I haven't done any work on true miniatures. (less than 5") However, I have played a couple. I found them difficult to play. Not from the standpoint of fingering difficulties due to size, but due to the fact that the bellows run out very quickly. It would seem to make sense.....smaller bellows = less air capacity. Miniatures are, in my opinion, more of a gimmick than anything else. What is the real purpose? Surely not to improve the quality of the musical performance..... Do they sound better than standard instruments.....play better.....or look cuter?

 

'Look cuter' is probably the answer Frank. Miniaturisation tends to make no end of things 'look cuter'.

[Geoffrey Crabb]

A few rambles for the weekend.

Instruments between 5-6 inches AF (across the flats) may be defined as Small concertinas. Smaller than 5inch are usually termed midget or miniature.

Most early Crabb (Jeffries) metal ended Anglos were made 6 inches AF and the reason for this was purely economic. The metal for the end plates was available in widths of 6 inch multiples i.e. 12 , 24 or 36. To avoid the difficulties of cutting in the workshop the metal was initially supplied ready cut into 6 inch wide strips. To keep waste and material costs to an absolute minimum, the instruments were made to fit the metal.

 

However, when required to make 48 button English to the 6.25 inch AF size adopted by Wheatstone/Lachenal etc.,

12 inch material was procured cut into 6.25" and 5.75" strips.

5.75 inch AF Anglo instruments were made to match the narrower material. These smaller instruments were typically limited to a maximum of 30 buttons.

From circa 1930 Crabb Anglos (20 – 40 button) were normally made 6.25 inches AF.

 

Of course, other makers (Lachenal, Jones etc.) made instruments smaller. Whether commissioned by parents for children, by entertainers or for promotional purposes their introduction, I believe from a makers point of view, set an unfortunate precedent in that their existence prompted ongoing requests for similar instruments over the years. Whilst small (less than 6 inch AF) 30 and 31 button models have been made, very few have been a true success due to the necessary use of undersize, loaded reeds often over crammed into the reed pans and the action, problematic to install, often inefficient and difficult to maintain. Additionally, these instruments were invariably more expensive than the larger versions.

I, personally, would not entertain trying to include more than a 26 button C/G in a 5 inch AF hexagonal instrument.

 

I am aware that the smaller instruments do have an appeal to some who have tried them and whilst a 6 fold bellows is usually sufficient for ITM, 7 or 8 folds are probably better for 'English chordal' style.

 

Please see the attached for further information on a workable design of a Small 26 button C/G Anglo.

 

Geoffrey

Edited November 16, 2012 by Geoffrey Crabb

[Rod]

A few rambles for the weekend.

Instruments between 5-6 inches AF (across the flats) may be defined as Small concertinas. Smaller than 5inch are usually termed midget or miniature.

Most early Crabb (Jeffries) metal ended Anglos were made 6 inches AF and the reason for this was purely economic. The metal for the end plates was available in widths of 6 inch multiples i.e. 12 , 24 or 36. To avoid the difficulties of cutting in the workshop the metal was initially supplied ready cut into 6 inch wide strips. To keep waste and material costs to an absolute minimum, the instruments were made to fit the metal.

 

However, when required to make 48 button English to the 6.25 inch AF size adopted by Wheatstone/Lachenal etc.,

12 inch material was procured cut into 6.25" and 5.75" strips.

5.75 inch AF Anglo instruments were made to match the narrower material. These smaller instruments were typically limited to a maximum of 30 buttons.

From circa 1930 Crabb Anglos (20 – 40 button) were normally made 6.25 inches AF.

 

Of course, other makers (Lachenal, Jones etc.) made instruments smaller. Whether commissioned by parents for children, by entertainers or for promotional purposes their introduction, I believe from a makers point of view, set an unfortunate precedent in that their existence prompted ongoing requests for similar instruments over the years. Whilst small (less than 6 inch AF) 30 and 31 button models have been made, very few have been a true success due to the necessary use of undersize, loaded reeds often over crammed into the reed pans and the action, problematic to install, often inefficient and difficult to maintain. Additionally, these instruments were invariably more expensive than the larger versions.

I, personally, would not entertain trying to include more than a 26 button C/G in a 5 inch AF hexagonal instrument.

 

I am aware that the smaller instruments do have an appeal to some who have tried them and whilst a 6 fold bellows is usually sufficient for ITM, 7 or 8 folds are probably better for 'English chordal' style.

 

Please see the attached for further information on a workable design of a Small 26 button C/G Anglo.

 

Geoffrey

 

Geoff. When I posted my very brief reaction to Frank Edgley's suggestion relating to possible 'cuteness' I had in mind something like your 2.75" 12 key Midget G English (December 2008).