Thirds on concertina reeds versus accordion reeds

[Don Taylor]

I have both a CC Jack with accordion reeds and a Lachanel with concertina reeds.

 

Some thirds on the Jack sound unpleasant, whereas on the Lachanel they sound quite nice.

 

Is there a general reason for this, or is it simply the nature of these two specific instruments?

 

Has temperament got anything to do with it? I seem to remember earlier comments about changing temperaments to make thirds sound better, and also that some melodeons (accordion reeds?) have a stop to remove thirds from their chords.

 

In general, I don't find that the Jack sounds bad, just some of the thirds, but this issue did cause me to buy a period concertina. I am trying to use Pauline de Snoo's concertina course and she very much emphasizes the use of thirds right from the beginning of the course. I did not think that I could tolerate taking the course on my Jack.

 

Don.

[Geoff Wooff]

Firstly Don,

the selling price's of the Concertina Connection's 'Starter' range surely cannot allow for the instruments to be 'fine tuned' and so I can imagine that some chords might not be as good as they could be. An instrument in Equal Temperament will have to be very acurately tuned not to throw up a chordal anomaly somewhere. High praise has been given to this range of beginer instruments from Concertina Connection but that should be viewed for what it is.... " great value for money". I must add that I have never tried any of these accordion reeded concertinas.

 

Your Lachenal, on the other hand, might well be very nicely tuned.. you do not say which model it is... if it has Brass or Steel reeds etc.

 

I am pleasantly suprised that Pauline de Snoo "emphasises the use of Thirds right from the start" when so much comment has been given over to the avoidance of this interval since the,almost universal, adoption of Equal Temperament. Personally I use a lot of thirds in my EC playing, but then I have not used Equal Temperament on my English's since about 1980.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Geoff Wooff

[Don Taylor]

 

Your Lachenal, on the other hand, might well be very nicely tuned.. you do not say which model it is... if it has Brass or Steel reeds etc.

 

 

It is an 1890's Excelsior with steel reeds recently bought from Chris Algar.

[Geoff Wooff]

 

Your Lachenal, on the other hand, might well be very nicely tuned.. you do not say which model it is... if it has Brass or Steel reeds etc.

 

 

It is an 1890's Excelsior with steel reeds recently bought from Chris Algar.

 

 

 

Oh yes yes , sorry I forgot... had a couple of problems of late which have taken my eye off the ball.

Glad you like the Excelsior.. the smell is probably what I used to call "old instrument odour"... I recall that Harry Crabbs shop in north London had this smell... I rather like it.. perhaps for the fond memories it invokes?

[ceemonster]

double-check your Jack to be sure it is in tune and all your doubled enharmonics are identical in concert pitch.

 

if there's no issue there, your dislike of the accordion-reeded thirds is quite likely subjective and your own personal taste. for exampl;e, i subjectively like the sound of concertina reeds for irish music (and i guess for classical too, though i personally have no interest in playing classical music on the concertina), but i subjectively like the sound of quality accordion reeds on concertina, including thirds, for almost every other world folk music genre--paris musette, french swing, eastern european, mexican conjunto, etcs....

[David Barnert]

It's possible that the Lachenal is tuned in mean-tone or some other non-equal temperament, making the 3rds perfectly in tune, and sweeter sounding than any equal tempered instrument, cheap or not. It would be interesting to analyse them with a tuner and see if one or both of them is equal tempered, out of tune, or mean tone.

[Anglo-Irishman]

i subjectively like the sound of concertina reeds for irish music (and i guess for classical too, though i personally have no interest in playing classical music on the concertina), but i subjectively like the sound of quality accordion reeds on concertina, including thirds, for almost every other world folk music genre--paris musette, french swing, eastern european, mexican conjunto, etcs....

 

ceemonster,

 

Intersting observation! Logical, if you think about it ...

 

The genres you like accordion-reeded concertians for are all genres in which the accordion (in various forms) plays an established role. So the hybrid concertina comes closer to what's already there.

 

Irish dance music is dominated (and has been formed) by the fiddle and pipes, and classical music uses a lot of violin and oboe. In both cases, the traditional-reeded concertina comes closer to the established "sound" of the genre.

 

Cheers,

John

[michael sam wild]

Any comments from pipe players or pipe makers on the tuning of regulator reeds etc which give the colour to their chords. I love playing with just me and a piper

[Geoff Wooff]

Any comments from pipe players or pipe makers on the tuning of regulator reeds etc which give the colour to their chords. I love playing with just me and a piper

 

 

 

In the purest of senses any Bagpipe ought not to have a Tempered scale. This means that each note of a bagpipe chanter would form a perfect interval to its drone note , very much like a Monochord. In practice some allowances have to be made for the poor old piper who might have to play with other people.

 

It is not many years ago that the very idea of a duet with pipes and Concertina or Accordion would have been unthinkable.

 

Once a bagpipe becomes a little more complictated (than just a melody pipe with drone accompaniment), as is the case with the Irish (Uilleann or Union) pipes, then some form of tempering of the scales might be needed.

 

For ideas on what a Monochord is I recommend reading "Tuning and Temperament" (a historical survey) by J.Murray Barbour.

 

Simply put; each note of the scale is tuned to provide a 'perfect interval' to the Drone note. A perfect interval is often a pure ratio of sound wave vibrations.. the point being that the vibration frequency of one note will divide into, or blend with, the vibrations of a second note so as to create a chord with the least amount of turbulence, sometimes none at all.

By tuning in this way the resultant scale does not have equal spacings and therefore the full extent of the emotions attributed to the different musical modes by the ancient Greeks can be experienced.

 

Sorry am I going too quickly, delving too deep ????

 

The question you ask cannot in all fairness be answered without an explaination such as this, or it would be meaningless.

 

Edit; I am recovering from a serious illness so I will be writting this reply in short sections, due to fatigue.

 

 

So, the theory is that if you have a set of perfect intervals, within a closed system (ie. one instrument and one Datum note, the drone) it should be possible to play several of those notes as a chord, choosing which ever notes you wish to do this, or in extremis use them all and the result ought not to be a clash... strange perhaps to our Western Music trained ears... sometimes very warm and calming ... sometimes alarming, frightening possibly.This will only happen to those who are emotionally sensitive to musical sounds.

 

The above covers some of what should be happening with a good chanter and drone combination. So, to your question of what way the Regulators are tuned:

 

Regulators provide a very simple harmony which can only get complicated when blended with the chanter.

If the chanter is tuned in a scale of natural intervals then the Regulators must be tuned to match it... but be quickly adjustable to compensate for certain chord useage when changing keys.

 

The notes of the standard regulators are D, F#,G,A,B and C (whatever pitch the Irish pipes are the drone is always called D).... so if we call D Zero then F# could have a basic setting of -14 cents( in comparison to Equal temperament) giving a Perfect major third interval ( 386 cents ) to the D.

 

The G note will then be -2 cents.. a perfect major Fourth ( 498 cents)... the A will be +2 cents, perfect major fifth ( 702 cents)... B is -16 cents a perfect major Sixth ( 884cents) and C natural could be a perfect Flat seventh -29 cents (971 cents). In practice it is better to keep some of these notes a little closer to Equal temperament but the tuning pins in each regulator allow for fine adjustments.

 

So, if we move just one stage further with these figures and add the interval numbers, we get the simple regulator chords of D/F# (a perfect major third at an interval of 386 cents), D/G ( a perfect major Fourth at an interval of 498 cents), A/F# ( a perfect major Sixth at an inverted 884 cents) and G/B( another perfect third at an interval of 386 cents)... all these intervals are very pleasing to the ears and are usually tuned 'by ear'.

These pleasing intervals are what, Michael, you are enjoying when playing your concertina with your piping friend.

 

From here on in things can get far more compilicated with the inclusion of 'perfect major and minor Seconds'.. the making of chords with perfect major and minor intervals together ( D/E/F#/A etc.) but that is far beyond the remit of your question.

Best regards,

Geoff.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Geoff Wooff

[Peter Laban]

Good to see you participating anyway Geoff!

 

In the context of conertina and pipes, there's a small but interesting bit a few minutes into this documentary of Packie Russell and Willie Clancy playing the Lark on the Strand. Some John Kelly playing the consherthiner later on as well.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Peter Laban

[RatFace]

I am pleasantly suprised that Pauline de Snoo "emphasises the use of Thirds right from the start" when so much comment has been given over to the avoidance of this interval since the,almost universal, adoption of Equal Temperament. Personally I use a lot of thirds in my EC playing, but then I have not used Equal Temperament on my English's since about 1980.

 

In general, my opinion is that on the concertina, thirds are OK in passing, but start to sound unpleasant when held on (or used) for more than a short time. Also thirds in the mid range are much more acceptable than high or low. I don't know how much that is only true (for me) for concertinas in equal temperament, though.

[Geoff Wooff]

Michael; I have finnished my short discourse on Regulator tuning... three three posts up this page.

 

Danny; yes I agree that the thirds in the lower and upper reaches are not as acceptable as those in the central range, in Equal Temperament.

 

Peter; nice documentary!!

Edited October 2, 2012 by Geoff Wooff