Type of concertina

[catty]

For many of the reasons mentioned above, EC is close to be the "perfect" instrument. Unfortunately for me, having grown up with piano keyboards, woodwinds, and strings--where adjacent notes are immediately, well, adjacent!--I could not fully adjust to the alternating hands layout of EC. I love EC, and SO wanted to make it my primary...but I started on anglo, and along with those other instruments where chromatic scales are adjacent--I'm accustomed to having the notes always right where they are "felt" to be--rather than on alternating hands.

 

And so, I'm left with arranging for anglo, but I play a bunch of other stuff--so I'm not needing my free-reeds to be chromatic. I usually play repertoire that I formerly played on EC--on flute or other woddwinds

Edited September 5, 2012 by catty

[charviol]

Good morning, and the weather is glorious here today. Talk about a hybrid approach! I am going to rent a 48 button English concertina to see how that goes, and there will be an Alistair Anderson tutor delivered along with that. I am quite excited, and I bet that I'll end up buying the instrument. But there's more: I will also be purchasing a 30 button Anglo concertina, hopefully arriving before the English. A local Anglo player has the Bertram Levy tutor The Anglo Concertina Demystified for me to use. Assuming that everything arrives intact and in good playing condition, this should be a blast! Now that my situation is somewhat more settled, I welcome commentary/advice on the learning process, based on how you started and developed your concertina chops. Take care!

[ceemonster]

are there specific EC makes/models that have "flat reedpans" and will give an Anglo-like brilliance, volume, and bite/quack/growl/bark, if one (such as this one) would like to have that in an EC? would this be something a contemporary maker could easily to do order?

Edited November 10, 2012 by ceemonster

[Geoff Wooff]

are there specific EC makes/models that have "flat reedpans" and will give an Anglo-like brilliance, volume, and bite/quack/growl/bark, if one (such as this one) would like to have that in an EC? would this be something a contemporary maker could easily to do order?

 

 

Yes and yes. Back up to post number 9 for my take on this subjest.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Geoff Wooff

[Don Taylor]

are there specific EC makes/models that have "flat reedpans" and will give an Anglo-like brilliance, volume, and bite/quack/growl/bark, if one (such as this one) would like to have that in an EC? would this be something a contemporary maker could easily to do order?

 

 

Yes and yes. Back up to post number 9 for my take on this subjest.

Geoff:

 

Would you please cite some specific EC models that can sound like an Anglo.

 

Thx.

 

Don.

[Theo]

 

Would you please cite some specific EC models that can sound like an Anglo.

 

Thx.

 

Don.

 

I know I'm not Geoff, but I suggest looking at Crabb ECs for this kind of sound.

[Geoff Wooff]

are there specific EC makes/models that have "flat reedpans" and will give an Anglo-like brilliance, volume, and bite/quack/growl/bark, if one (such as this one) would like to have that in an EC? would this be something a contemporary maker could easily to do order?

 

 

Yes and yes. Back up to post number 9 for my take on this subjest.

Geoff:

 

Would you please cite some specific EC models that can sound like an Anglo.

 

Thx.

 

Don.

 

 

 

 

Well, what I use is an early model 22 from Wheatstone. This is a 48key treble with raised metal ends but unlike almost all the 20th Century EC's this one has a "flat reedpan".

 

Explaination; because the reeds of an EC are arranged radially on the reedpans with an almost perfect gradation from largest to smallest in sequence, in both directions around the circumference, it is possible to grade the heights of the chamber walls (dividers). This was a new thing that someone discovered towards the end of the 19th century as a very good way to balance the tone of a Concertina throughout its range. The " Angled "or " Canted" reedpan with its much deeper chambers for the low notes is a fine thing for chordal playing, or adding a bass line below a melody, so that the low notes do not dominate.

 

The Anglo does not have its reeds arranged on the reedpan in this evenly graded way so it is difficult, or practically impossible without a very different way of constructing the reedpans, to be able to use different reed chamber depths to balance the volume and tone of notes. Thus the Anglo has Flat (even wall height) reedpans. This is part of the difference, perhaps a large part, between the sound of an EC and an AC.

 

BUT!, just before the introduction of the "Canted Reedpan" on EC's there was a short period when market forces (I suspect) drove the makers to produce louder Engish Concertinas than those gentille instruments played by the Victorian middle and upper classes in their drawing rooms. In the 1890's Wheatstone's had yet to produce Anglos, other than a 'special' and the EC was their Instrument. If one imagines the competition between Lachenal and Wheatstone.. add in the power and tone of Crabb and Jeffries Anglos... you can see how the development departments could have been busy. This was the period when the New model Lachenal, the Edeophone and the Aeola were being developed.

 

So, out of this period comes, for a short time, the flat reedpan EC from Wheatstone which competes well with the New Model Lachenal for volume. The Wheatstone is not as sharp, or maybe as loud, as the Lachenal New Model but it certainly has a strong tone very similar to the Wheatstone Linota Anglo.

 

I cannot comment on the reedpans of Lachenals of the same period, I have tried them but prefer the tone of the Wheatstones.

 

The period in question would appear to be 1895- 1905, possibly longer.

 

I will explain how to recognise these instruments in my next post... but it is dinner time!

Edited November 10, 2012 by Geoff Wooff

[Don Taylor]

Geoff:

 

Thank you for this. I am really looking forward to your next episode.

 

Your description might explain something on my Excelsior which I date to about 1875. I have tried holding down one of the lowest notes with my little finger while playing the melody with my other fingers to try to get a drone effect, but the drone note is much louder than the melody. I was wondering if there was any way to mute the lowest notes.

 

I think that my Excelsior does have a flat reed pan, but I await your next episode for confirmation.

 

Don.

[Geoff Wooff]

Don,

I would imagine that your Excelsior does have a flat reedpan. I will try to include some photos, if I can remember how to attach them.

 

The earlier 19th century reedpans have the radial chamber walls but usually lack the little crosswalls that cut the volume of the chambers and speed up the starting of the reed when the button is pressed. When you combine the crosswalls with a minimising of the chamber volume by having the divider walls fairly shallow , as in the 1895-1905 Wheatstone Hexagonal models, then the speed of start up is as instant as possible. The other effect is that the reeds are more susceptable to pressure variations and thus , with care, a certain bending of notes and adjustment of tone colours can be made.

 

So, the "flat reedpan" will have equal height divider walls which would be about one quarter of an inch high... some models are less and some are more than this. The less high the more the effects of unbridled "Blues Harp" can be made. The results can be uncouth but in the Wheatstones of that period the reed tongues were slightly wider and of parallel form, the sound was thus not so cuttingly sharp.

 

The later Proper model 22 from Wheatstone had a tapered (Canted) reedpan and was better balanced and is popular for dance music playing in the Folk music genres.

 

Between the Wheatstone serial numbers 22000 and 24000 you can find these flat reedpan instruments ,some with metal ends some wooden ends.

 

I notice that one of Wim Wakker's new English models has parallel reedpans like the old Victorian instruments and I am sure he would make one of these to sound like an Anglo if requested to.

 

The advantages are volume and carrying power which can be usefull in noisy situations like playing in a dance band. Disadvantages would include the change of sound character through the range. Mine sounds like a Clarinet or Saxaphone in the lower half octave, due to a suppression of some harmonics,I guess, caused by the shallow chambers. So a snuffly honking can be produced with care to imitate those instruments. The middle octave and a half is quite clear and penetrating but can be played quietly (ish). Maximum power is reached at Top C (48 key treble) and then things drop off dramatically but the upper registers are very mouthorgan like.

It is a fun machine, perhaps a bit like a Honky tonk Piano. I use it for playing Folk Dance music ( French, Irish, Scottish and American) and a little Ragtime.

 

For Clasical and song accomp. I use my Wooden ended Aeola.

 

I first became aware of these "flat reedpan" models about 35 years ago but due to spending a great deal of the interim in a different musical space it was only recently that I was able to find one to own.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Geoff Wooff

[Geoff Wooff]

Here should be a picture of two Wheatstone reedpans. the one on the left is my "Flat reedpan" from 1898. On the right is the corresponding Pan from a Model 22 Wheatstone from the 1920's.

 

Hmmmm, new computer... cannot figure out how to add pictures

 

 

 

 

This is not the picture that I intended for this post but it is pertinent. This is a Flat reedpan Wheatstone from 1900-02 and is what we now call a model 24, 56 extended Treble. This is an example of the first type of Flat reedpan EC that I came across.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Geoff Wooff

[Don Taylor]

Geoff:

 

Thanks again.

 

I do find this concertina geek stuff fascinating and I would love to read a technical development history of the concertina.

 

Don.

[ceemonster]

geoff, theo, this is brilliant! i don't want a drawing-room EC. i do want crisp, defined notes, but i want a loud, growly, barky, anglo-ish voicing that people who like the drawing-room sound sometimes call "harsh.' this is a great place to start. i'm also wondering about AC Norman's Tenor model....if he says it is as bright and loud as his Anglos with no difference in volume, that might be a possibility as well....and today is a big day with Wim Wakker's announcemnet about the Rose. but a metal-ended concertina-reeded instrument that sounded like an Anglo Crabb, New Model, or one of the Wheatstones so wonderfully described by geoff....that would be something to really aim for....

 

i was at a tionol after-party session last night, and pinned to the bulletin board in one room was a printout of geoff's avatar photo....

[Geoff Wooff]

i was at a tionol after-party session last night, and pinned to the bulletin board in one room was a printout of geoff's avatar photo....

 

 

 

Where was that Ceemonster ?

 

Actually that picture was taken on a rainy day during the Willie Clancy Summer School in 1985. Photographer was Liam McNulty the then administrator of Na Piobairi Uilleann. I am sure more copies exist than the one I obtained when Liam was throwing out some clutter.

[ceemonster]

at gabe mcK's house in san juan capistrano...

 

they do a really nice tionol....also, gabe made me a cd of sean talty a couple of tionols ago, discerning that that was very much the style i like....super hospitable, lovely folks....

Edited November 12, 2012 by ceemonster

[ceemonster]

did the wheatstone Model 21s also have anglo-ish reedpan construction?

[Geoff Wooff]

did the wheatstone Model 21s also have anglo-ish reedpan construction?

 

 

 

 

My gut feeling on this point is that by the time Wheatstone had attributed type numbers ( like 21, 22, 24 etc.) all of their EC reedpans were Tapered. However, that is not based on personal observation of a great number of instruments.

 

Chris Algar has a 48 metal ended EC for sale on Ebay right now which looks to be a model 21 from the early 1900's which could have a flat reedpan. It also looks as if it has an 'action board' that is not made of the usual Sycamore (Maple) but of the same pink-ish looking wood that Lachenal favoured at times, I really cannot remember what that wood is, just now, BUT, I am expecting, another Flat reedpan Wheatstone to arrive here this week which also has this type of wood used for the Pallet board so I should then be in a better position to comment on the tone/volume aspect.

 

To just be perfectly clear; these Flat reedpan EC's from Wheatstone do not sound like a Jeffries Anglo but they have a very similar sound to Wheatstones 'Linota' anglo.

 

edit; I note that my computer has donated us one photo for my post , number 28, above!

Edited November 14, 2012 by Geoff Wooff

[Anglo-Irishman]

I sometimes wonder whether the difference in sound between Anglo and English has something to do with the way they're held, i.e. hand-straps v. thumb-straps.

 

With the heel of my hand pressing the bellows and the draw effected by a stout hand-strap distributing the load to my whole hand, I can get as much "oomph" as I like from my Anglo or Duet. Surely this is not possible with just the thumb drawing and only the thumb and pinkie pressing the EC - or is there a trick to playing the EC fortissimo that's not obvious to outsiders?

Also, my hands are braced between the endplate and hand-stap of an Anglo or Duet, so changes of bellows direction have no "slop" whatever, and this makes for a clean attack, which also makes the notes clearer.

(I've only had an EC in my hands once, and I felt only tenuously connected with it; it wasn't as if it was "part of me.")

 

Just wondering!

Cheers,

John

[Geoff Wooff]

I sometimes wonder whether the difference in sound between Anglo and English has something to do with the way they're held, i.e. hand-straps v. thumb-straps.

 

With the heel of my hand pressing the bellows and the draw effected by a stout hand-strap distributing the load to my whole hand, I can get as much "oomph" as I like from my Anglo or Duet. Surely this is not possible with just the thumb drawing and only the thumb and pinkie pressing the EC - or is there a trick to playing the EC fortissimo that's not obvious to outsiders?

Also, my hands are braced between the endplate and hand-stap of an Anglo or Duet, so changes of bellows direction have no "slop" whatever, and this makes for a clean attack, which also makes the notes clearer.

(I've only had an EC in my hands once, and I felt only tenuously connected with it; it wasn't as if it was "part of me.")

 

Just wondering!

Cheers,

John

 

 

Good question John,

and it needs a good answer!

 

Firstly as I have tried to suggest 'not all EC's are born equal' from the point of tone and attack, relating to the construction. One does need strong thumbs and a willingness to quickly change the pressure applied to the instrument and the instrument has to be able react to dynamic changes instantly. In other words an efficient instrument in good condition.

 

I relate the movements of the bellows to the use of the Bow in fiddle playing; whilst fiddlers, and fiddling genres, will change bow direction for each successive note, others will play several notes in one bow direction but with different emphasis, speeds and pressure of attack.

 

Another thing is finger attack, the speed and weight used to touch the keys.... touch or hammer or something in between.

 

As we know bellows direction changes work most quickly when the bellows is nearly fully closed... this is due to the lack of flexibility of the bellows hinging parts at this point of its travel. At the other end of the movement, bellows 2/3rds fully extended, the bellows is quite flexible, or it should be, and this flexibility can be used to good effect on the EC to punch and bounce notes whilst not changing the direction of movement, just appearing to.

 

Watching the movement of Alistair Anderson's Concertina, when he is in full flight, the bellows appears to hover at 70% open and the tension in his arms is controlling the air movement... this is what I think of as the bounce point.

 

There is plenty of punch to be had from an EC if you want it... however it appears that some people just use the bellows to supply air to the reeds and not so much as an expressive part of the instrument. Then there are Concertinas that have only one volume, they are on or off, and even a poor quality Anglo might appear to have some bounce (drive, punch, whatever you want to call it)by the necessity of changing bellows direction to obtain a scale.

 

I have recently taken up the Duet so I am thinking about the 'better availability of attack' provided by the hand strap and rail... my jury is still out on this. Whilst the system of holding the Anglo and Duet might contribute something to the tonal differeces between them and EC's I do not think would be much... It appears to be more concerned with the way we play them or what we play on them.

If I play a piece of Morris dance music on my EC using all the same notes that an Anglo player would use I could come close to a similar soundscape... perhaps not quite so punchy.

If I take a piece of music and play the same arrangement on EC and Maccann Duet.. is there a difference in sound ? Only as much as one instrument to another.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Geoff Wooff