G# or Ab ?

[Andy Holder]

Speaking as a non musician, (I don't play, only mend!) When do you call a note G# and when do you call it Ab? I always imagined that you use either one or the other but stick to it. However, both are used in the same instrument, why?

Thanks

Andrew

[gcoover]

Speaking as a non musician, (I don't play, only mend!) When do you call a note G# and when do you call it Ab? I always imagined that you use either one or the other but stick to it. However, both are used in the same instrument, why?

Thanks

Andrew

 

This dates back to the days before Equal Temperament became the norm in the concertina world, when G#/Ab and D#/Eb were different notes by about 20 cents (there are 100 cents in an interval). Meantone Temperament was used for English concertinas at least through the 1860's, maybe longer? I was surprised to find out my Bastari Anglo from the 1970's is in Pythagorean Temperament. Cajun accordions use a completely different temnperament system as well. So, to answer your question, if it's an English concertina in Equal Temperament then the G#/Ab and D#/Eb will be exactly the same and you can call them whatever you like depending on the proximity to the non-sharped or flatted note, or depending on the key signature of the music you are playing. Since they are now the same, you will sometimes see the extra one omitted on cheaper EC's with fewer buttons.

 

Gary

[Andy Holder]

Speaking as a non musician, (I don't play, only mend!) When do you call a note G# and when do you call it Ab? I always imagined that you use either one or the other but stick to it. However, both are used in the same instrument, why?

Thanks

Andrew

 

This dates back to the days before Equal Temperament became the norm in the concertina world, when G#/Ab and D#/Eb were different notes by about 20 cents (there are 100 cents in an interval). Meantone Temperament was used for English concertinas at least through the 1860's, maybe longer? I was surprised to find out my Bastari Anglo from the 1970's is in Pythagorean Temperament. Cajun accordions use a completely different temnperament system as well. So, to answer your question, if it's an English concertina in Equal Temperament then the G#/Ab and D#/Eb will be exactly the same and you can call them whatever you like depending on the proximity to the non-sharped or flatted note, or depending on the key signature of the music you are playing. Since they are now the same, you will sometimes see the extra one omitted on cheaper EC's with fewer buttons.

 

Gary

 

Thank you Gary. That was a very clear and logical explanation. I generally tune to equal temperament so it doesn't really matter but it was more a curiosity as to why some reeds were stamped G# and some stamped Ab. All is now clear, thanks.

Andrew

[Geoff Wooff]

Good Question Andy.

 

Short answer; as a 'mender' do you really need to know ?

 

 

Long answer;

 

the scales on an English Concertina run evenly left hand- right hand-left hand- right hand for the keys of Eb,Bb,F,C,G,D,A and E. Without the repeated Ab/G#'s and Eb/D# this equal handedness would be curtailed by one key at each end of this range.

 

If you are playing in the flat keys you use Ab and Eb and for the sharp keys you would use G# and D#. Perhaps this explaination is a little simplistic and refers to a starting point default fingering which may need to be reversed in more complex musical pieces.

 

For Chording and making Appegios on an EC it is most usefull to have these reitterated notes.Many simple chords can be triangulated and paterns stay logical longer.

 

If one starts a scale on any button and then presses the next button(for the next note up or down the scale) in the centre two rows on the oposite hand (natural notes), if it is the right note then fine, if it is not then press the button next to the one that you feel is wrong (on the corresponding outer row) it will be the correct note unless you are in a key beyond the range stated above.Again without the repeated buttons this patern would not work over the range stated above.

 

For Meantone tunings which would curtail the range of available 'good' key signatures on a Keyboard instrument, these repeated notes (G#/Ab and D#/Eb) can be tuned differently to allow more Keys to be used. An EC in Meantone tuning will sound sweeter than one in Equal Temperament except in very unusualkeys such as B,F# and C# majors.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Geoff Wooff

[Mikefule]

Very simply, if you play a major scale, you shoudl have one note for each letter. That tels you whether it is a sharp or a flat - which letter have you had to adjust by a semitone to make a scale?

 

Or look at the key signature. There are sharp keys:

G = 1#

D = 2#s,

A = 3#s

 

And there are the flat keys:

F has 1 flat

and so on.

 

A sharp key has sharps; a flat key has flats.

 

If you then have an accidental in a piece of music, it will be sharp or flat according to context.

 

But they sound the same.

[malcolmbebb]

 

This dates back to the days before Equal Temperament became the norm in the concertina world, when G#/Ab and D#/Eb were different notes by about 20 cents (there are 100 cents in an interval). Meantone Temperament was used for English concertinas at least through the 1860's, maybe longer? I was surprised to find out my Bastari Anglo from the 1970's is in Pythagorean Temperament.

Gary

Has anyone seen a (simple!) diagram comparing the (most common) temperaments? Mainly curiosity.

Malcolm

[Theo]

 

Has anyone seen a (simple!) diagram comparing the (most common) temperaments? Mainly curiosity.

Malcolm

 

Just search the web for "historical temperaments" and you will find plenty, whether they are "simple" is for you to judge. It is not a simple subject.

[Mike Franch]

An EC in Meantone tuning will sound sweeter than one in Equal Temperament except in very unusual keys such as B,F# and C# majors.

 

This discussion is very interesting and I'm learning a lot. Is it possible, Geoff, using only words as we do here, to explain what "sweeter" means?

 

Mike

[Geoff Wooff]

An EC in Meantone tuning will sound sweeter than one in Equal Temperament except in very unusual keys such as B,F# and C# majors.

 

This discussion is very interesting and I'm learning a lot. Is it possible, Geoff, using only words as we do here, to explain what "sweeter" means?

 

Mike

 

 

 

Sweeter;

with the current, almost, universal use of Equal Temperament ( 12 equally spaced tones per Octave) as a tuning regéme for almost all musical instruments the only notes that make perfect interval chords are the octaves. All other combinations of notes make chords that are less than perfect and sometimes very harsh or even SOUR.

 

The reason why one might revert back to an older temperament,and there are many of these, would be to try to SWEETEN some of the disturbingly ugly intervals. On the EC keyboard the simplest harmonies can be produced by triangulating the fingering to produce Major and Minor third chords. Although this is a very convenient device the downside is that the Major Third is perhaps the worst interval of all in Equal Temperament and sounds particularly harsh coming from a concertina. Other keyboard instruments have ways to soften the blow of these uglier intervals.... accordions with several voices per note,pianos with three strings per note and one of the three is tuned slightly out... etc etc.

 

Therefore I find it desireable,for my ears at least, to use a temperament that avoids as many harsh intervals as possible.

For the reason that the EC was available during the 19th century tuned in a Meantone temperament I had gravitated to this system after hearing and playing several instruments that retained their original tuning. I imediately noticed how much SWEETER these instruments sounded and I did wonder for a while if it was just that they were Brass reeded antiques or if I could obtain a similar sweetness from my metal ended Aeola.

 

The simple difference between Equal Temperament and the most Common form of Meantone is that ET has two perfect (or near perfect) intervals, the octave and fifth..... for the Meantone it is Octave and Major third.

 

The availability of the repeated notes of Ab/G# and Eb/D# allows a Meantone system to be useable in more key signatures. Meantone has also been used on the Anglo in times past. I am currently thinking how I could use a sweeter temperament on a Duet and what constraints that might have on chromatisism.

 

I now use a form of Meantone temperament on all my EC's and although I am only (technically) "IN TUNE" with everybody else at one point in the scale I have yet to recieve a complaint.

 

For further reading try; HOW EQUAL TEMPERAMENT RUINED HARMONY by Ross W.Duffin (ISBN 978-0-394-33420-3).

 

There are other books but this one is more fun to read.

 

I hope this goes some way to explain "Sweeter",

 

Geoff.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Geoff Wooff

[Wolf Molkentin]

The simple difference between and the most Common form of Meantone is that ET has two perfect (or near perfect) intervals, the octave and fifth..... for the Meantone it is Octave and Major third.

My (still developing) chording style includes far more (open) fifths than (major or minor) thirds.

 

In your opinion, would Equal Temperament suit me better then?

 

(Moreover, playing the third note of a given scale hence results in sixths...)

[Geoff Wooff]

The simple difference between and the most Common form of Meantone is that ET has two perfect (or near perfect) intervals, the octave and fifth..... for the Meantone it is Octave and Major third.

My (still developing) chording style includes far more (open) fifths than (major or minor) thirds.

 

In your opinion, would Equal Temperament suit me better then?

 

(Moreover, playing the third note of a given scale hence results in sixths...)

 

 

 

Perhaps it would. Having said that, the fifths in Meantone are not ugly they just 'sing' a little. The Sixths are accceptable to my ear as well.

 

I do not find any of the intervals in Meantone to be as annoying as the ET major thirds, but maybe that is a personal view.

 

The version of Meantone that I use is a compromise, about half way between the full "perfect thirds" temperament, (1/4 Comma Meantone)as used by some EC players during the 19th century ,and Equal Temperament. The name of this compromise is 1/5 Comma Meantone. With this form of Meantone it is only the Octaves that are 'perfect' to each other but enough sweetness is obtained to satisfy my ear without some notes being so far away from ET to cause major problems when playing with others.

 

The fact that you, and others , are tending to avoid the Major Thirds might suggest that you also find them disturbing ?

Edited July 6, 2012 by Geoff Wooff

[Andy Holder]

Thanks Geoff, for a most fascinating discussion. I think I understood most of it

What started off as a simple question has very complicated considerations!

Andrew

[Wolf Molkentin]

The fact that you, and others , are tending to avoid the Major Thirds might suggest that you also find them disturbing ?

This may very well be the case... That tendency stems from my own PA playing in fact.

 

But OTOH I like those drone-style fifths a lot...

 

And aside from that - thank you for your further explanation!

 

 

edited to replace a German word, which had gone astray obviously, with its English compagnon

Edited July 10, 2012 by blue eyed sailor

[Geoff Wooff]

Regarding these ET major thirds;

 

I have just had a think about what I am doing in this respect on the Maccann Duet which I started playing only a year ago. I can see that I am consciously avoiding these thirds when making my own arrangements by inverting chords or just removing the offending third from the chord. Hmmm!

[Dave Weinstein]

Thirds in ET sound particularly bad on a Concertina for the same reason they sound particularly bad on an electric guitar. You have an instrument which has an almost instant attack, and a prolonged sustain (or in the concertina's case, an indefinite one). Hence the electric guitar power chord (first and fifth only).

 

 

A very brief flash of a third is fine, keeping the third going sounds terribly harsh to my ears.

 

--Dave

[Mike Franch]

I hope this goes some way to explain "Sweeter",

 

Wow! Thank you Geoff. A lucid explanation, although received by my cloudy brain. Thank you for taking so much time to explain this. It will take me a while to understand all of it, but you've moved me forward.

 

And thanks to Andy for starting this thread. Maybe someday you'll trying laying one of those things you mend?

 

Mike

[Anglo-Irishman]

Thirds in ET sound particularly bad on a Concertina for the same reason they sound particularly bad on an electric guitar. You have an instrument which has an almost instant attack, and a prolonged sustain ...

 

The banjo hasn't got the sustain of the electric guitar, but nevertheless there's a problem with a major third ...

 

The upper 3 strings of the banjo (classic tuning) are tuned to G-B-D and the short 5th string to high g. That's the major chord of G - a cinch to tune by ear!

However, the easiest and most-played keys on the classic banjo are C, G and F, in all of which the C major chord features prominently. Unfortunately, the major third of the C chord (E) lies at the 2nd fret on the D string, and the open D string is the 5th of the G chord, so it's a bit sharp of equal temperament when tuned by ear. Going up two frets means two ET semitones, so the E for the C major chord is also sharp of ET. So the C major chord tends to sound sour, or "edgy." This is probably the origin of the misconception that a banjo can never be in tune. You have to tweak the 1st string down until both the G major and C major chords sound more or less OK.

 

After years of this, I obtained a Windsor zither-banjo dating from before 1914. And this has a split 2nd fret! The bit of the fret under the 1st string is offset towardes the nut, so it raises the pitch of the string by a tad less than two ET semitones. This means I can tune the open strings to a sweet G major, and still get a sweet C major chord. The down side is that the A major chord sounds weak, because the slightly flattened E is its 5th, but one doesn't need it quite so often.

 

As I say, this is an old, classic-style banjo. The split 2nd fret went out of fashion soon after, and nowadays everyone tunes electronically, and we're so accustomed to hearing Equal Temperament that nobody notices.

 

I suppose it was the ears that called for a separate D#/Eb on the EC that called for the split 2nd fret on the banjo. They must have been less accustomed to ET in those days.

 

Cheers,

John

[Geoff Wooff]

Thanks for the positive comments Andy,Blue Eyed Sailor and Mike,

 

I'm glad that you found the explainations interesting.

 

Perhaps many of us that are involved with playing 'Folk Musics' might question the usefullness of these alternate tunings. So, I might suggest two absolute opposite cases where deviations from Equal Temperament are used. The first is with early keyboard music . One CD that I listen to very regularly is Christopher Hogwood's 1983 recording of J;S.Bach's "French Suites" for Harpsichord. For each of the six suites Hogwood chooses a different temperament, including twice using the 1/5 Comma Meantone each with slight variations to suit the keys of the pieces but does not use ET at all.

 

The other very different case is the tuning system used at the pure end of Irish Piping. On the Uilleann pipes the notes of the chanter should be able to make a complete set of PERFECT intervals to the drone pitch. That means each interval is the most pleasing to the human ear and includes all intervals both major and minor. In practice this is very difficult to achieve especially if one also wishes to provide the musician with enough tones that are as close as possible to Equal Temperament for playing with other instruments. Quite a few of the perfect interval notes are a long way from their ET equivalents and this can cause problems musically when playing with others unless the other instrument(s) are as tunable as a fiddle. It is possible to set the notes of a concertina so that they agree with those of the pipes but a fine piper will use several variants of pitch on some notes and each piper may well have their own idea as to where to place these notes on the scale.... one example of this is ;

if we say that the drone note is D (that is what Irish pipers call it) then the perfect Second (E) will have two positions , Major Second 204 cents sharper than the D and a minor Second 190 cents sharper than D....

 

This is just to suggest that not everyone uses Equal Temperament .

 

And so it goes on and opinions differ.

 

Cheers,

Geoff.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Geoff Wooff