Newbie (Hi!) with a new concertina

[khalleron]

Hello - I've been lurking here for a bit, getting some info before I buy my first concertina. I can sight read a bit (I'm a trained singer), but since I never had music lessons of any kind as a child, I've never been able to learn to play an instrument, despite many tries at it. I thought Anglo concertina might be playable, but didn't want to spend $400 for an instrument I probably would fail at, too, so I bought a vintage one off of eBay (I know, I know, I read all the boards and ignored everyone's advice anyway - sue me!)

 

It's a Rigoletto made by Kostler & Co in Germany, probably in the 60s. I opened it up to see if it was in good condition inside, and instead of the reed pan I was expecting, found four little harmonicas. Has anyone else seen anything like this? I must admit it sounds amazing, especially in chords, like an organ. The concertina is in good shape, the bellows don't leak (although they're a bit stiff), although there's a couple of buttons on the G row, right hand side that are a bit iffy. I can't seem to access the action from the inside, so I don't know if I'll be able to fix those.

 

Some of the holes in the harmonicas have little leather flaps over them, some don't. I don't know if this is a feature or whether those need to be replaced on the missing ones (chamois, maybe?). If anyone knows anything about this type of concertina, I'd love to have some advice.

 

Thanks for running this site - I don't know where I'd have learned as much anywhere else.

 

 

PS: I looked up Kostler & Co, and they were once harmonica makers, so I guess putting harmonicas in concertinas was natural for them.

[richard]

Hi

 

I don't think your concertina is what would be referred to as vintage. Vintage usually refers to instruments with concertina reeds. The main makers were Wheatstone, Jefferies,Lachenal, Crabb, and few others. Some Wheatstones were made into the 1960's which could be called vintage.

 

It sounds like a good starter instrument. I hope you were implying your spent much less than $400.00 for your Rigoletto. That will get you to good start.

 

Richard

Edited June 26, 2012 by richard

[Anglo-Irishman]

It's a Rigoletto made by Kostler & Co in Germany, probably in the 60s. I opened it up to see if it was in good condition inside, and instead of the reed pan I was expecting, found four little harmonicas. Has anyone else seen anything like this? I must admit it sounds amazing, especially in chords, like an organ.

 

Hi, and welcome!

 

You may have already noticed this, but almost anything you find strange or wierd has been seen by somebody in this forum!

 

My first concertina was just like yours: a German one bought new (in Ireland) in the1960s, with a stiff bellows and four little harmonicas inside. And it sounded great, too. I even used it as the sole accompaniment for congregational singing in Church (admittedly in a rather small church, but nevertheless!) My friends called it my "mini-organ." Just don't expect it to sound like an English-made concertina - it has a charm all its own!

 

Don't worry about the "harmonicas." They're called reed banks, and all the bigger German Konzertinas (e.g. Chemnitzers and Bandoneons) have them. A lot of the small, hexagonal ones from Germany and Italy have them, too, including the much-maligned but nevertheless serviceable Stagis.

 

By the way, the leather flaps are the "valves." They keep the air from passing through in the wrong direction. Often the very shortest reeds, even in top-class concertinas, don't have them. If they're genuinely missing where they should be, and you want to replace them, chamois is too limp. Just try the thinnest leather you can get. But if none of your reeds are wheezing without the button being pressed, it ain't broke, so don't fix it!

 

What kind of music are you playing/hoping to play on it? At any rate, good luck with it!

 

Cheers,

John

[MatthewVanitas]

Hello - I've been lurking here for a bit, getting some info before I buy my first concertina. I can sight read a bit (I'm a trained singer), but since I never had music lessons of any kind as a child, I've never been able to learn to play an instrument, despite many tries at it. I thought Anglo concertina might be playable, but didn't want to spend $400 for an instrument I probably would fail at, too, so I bought a vintage one off of eBay (I know, I know, I read all the boards and ignored everyone's advice anyway - sue me!)

 

Sometimes you just have to learn by doing. Buying an older concertina (or any free-reed) off eBay can be awfully risky, but I'd imagine the Rigoletto might be close enough in design to the other Italian-made post-WWII concertinas that most of the advice about tweaking Stagi/Bastari/etc. here should be helpful.

 

Have you seen the article Making a Bastari/Stagi Playable? That might be worth a read for info on fixing any stubborn buttons, bellows repair, etc. I used that article to fix up an Italian 1960s-ish Silvagni Anglo concertina, and though I still have some tweaking to do at least it basically works now.

 

 

 

 

It's a Rigoletto made by Kostler & Co in Germany, probably in the 60s. I opened it up to see if it was in good condition inside, and instead of the reed pan I was expecting, found four little harmonicas. Has anyone else seen anything like this? I must admit it sounds amazing, especially in chords, like an organ. The concertina is in good shape, the bellows don't leak (although they're a bit stiff), although there's a couple of buttons on the G row, right hand side that are a bit iffy. I can't seem to access the action from the inside, so I don't know if I'll be able to fix those.

 

Do you mean literally harmonicas? Or do you (as I'd guess) mean there are these wooden chambers with reeds on them set at a right-angle to the keyboard sticking inwards to the bellows? If you have a camera or one on your cellphone, I'd suggest posting an image so we can see what you mean. You can use tinypic.com to upload images for free and post them here.

 

If you mean "wooden, harmonica-like reedblocks", then yes that's really common in the Italian concertinas. I don't know exactly why (carryover from more familiar accordion construction?) but I'm sure some folks here have some idea. Does yours look rather like this?

 

 

Also, what do you mean by "iffy" on the buttons? Are the buttons rattling, or inclined to get stuck down in their holes? Or are their notes not shutting off after you release the button? Or does the actual button work fine but the sound you're getting is out of tune, or muffled/strangled? A little detail there would really help diagnose the problem. If the buttons themselves are wobbly or poorly-responsive, that is likely the very common issue of the old rubber button-sleeves having decayed over time and lost their flex. It's a minor hassle, just a matter of buying a certain type of silicone tubing off eBay for a few bucks, cutting little bits of it, and sliding them onto the keys. But you'll have to access the action to be able to inspect/improve the button issues.

 

So far as accessing the action from the inside: if yours is like ones I've worked on, when you have the end sitting keys-down and reedblocks-up, you might see some little screws in the board. Those screws hold the hexagonal board with reeds/action into the end. If you undo them you should be able to lift the reed/board/action assembly out (carefully!) It might be kind of stuck in there, so takes some finesse.

 

 

Glad you've got a concertina and are excited to learn! Getting an Italian beater might not be the easiest way to start playing, but you'll certainly learn some things about how concertinas work. And I've had good luck with beater Italians being at least playable (if not smooth), so with a little luck once you get it cleaned up and tweaked it'll be a serviceable starter piece.

Edited June 26, 2012 by MatthewVanitas

[malcolmbebb]

Hi and welcome.

 

Your box is playing two reeds for each button (one in each bank). Typically these would be tuned an octave apart, so one reed bank in each side will have longer reeds than the other.

 

The metal reedblocks are often held on to the woodwork by bent "nails", or maybe with a form of wax. If the nails, they will have cord gaskets underneath and it will be fairly easy to lift the reed plates out and check the reeds and valves on the other side, by rotating the nails. They are double sided. But don't feel obliged to do this just yet.

If wax, it's a bit more involved and can wait for another day

 

As above, some photos would be nice. We like photos.

 

Most concertinas play just a single reed for each button, and will sound different (be warned!) but the principles of playing are the same.

 

You will probably find it hard at first, but get a tutor book, try some simple tunes and persist!

 

Malcolm

[khalleron]

Thanks for all the replies - to answer some of them -

 

I didn't know 'vintage' was a brand - I'm using 'vintage' to mean 'older than 20 years', that's all.

 

Yes, the inside does look very much like the picture (thanks for the info!) except the board appears to be nailed down with tiny 'brad' nails like carpet tacks. I'll look at it a little more closely when I get home, but it doesn't appear that the action is accessible without pulling nails and I'm leery of doing that.

 

As to the 'iffy' buttons, some of the notes only sound when the bellows are pushed or pulled HARD and at an angle, not an easy sound as with the other buttons. Maybe not a problem with the buttons, per se, but with the reeds? It's only the G row, so I guess I can learn in the key of C for the time being (or cover up the weak/missing notes with chords).

 

None of the reeds are 'wheezing', so I think I'll leave the valves alone, thanks!

 

All in all, it's in remarkable shape for the age of it.

 

I have the Mel Bay book arriving tomorrow - right now I'm just noodling around with scales and chords. I have varied musical tastes (pop, classical, folk, hymns), so I'll be playing a selection of those. Not for performance, just for my own amusement.

[MatthewVanitas]

Thanks for all the replies - to answer some of them -

 

I didn't know 'vintage' was a brand - I'm using 'vintage' to mean 'older than 20 years', that's all.

 

Not necessarily a "brand", just that "vintage" connotes a certain level of value, whereas a more generic old Italian/German box is just "old".

 

Some of it's a timeline cutoff too: yours is almost definitely a post-WWII box, so not particularly venerable by concertina standards. Yours would've been made in a period of mass-production when the Italians used accordion-based structures to produce budget accordions efficiently. "Vintage" would tend to refer to older concertinas using traditional "riveted" or "hook" actions rather than the accordion-like lever action yours uses, and a flat pan vice the "harmonicas". These early-contemporary concertinas, like all but the most expensive modern concertinas, used accordion reeds as a cost-cutting measure. "True" concertina reeds are very different in construction and not so easy to just stamp out in bulk. That's why you'll see the term "hybrid concertina", to refer to concertinas made with accordion-style reeds. It's not necessarily a bad thing, and there are people who prefer the accordion-reed sound, but it's less "classic", somewhat different sound, and generally leads to bulkier instruments.

 

 

Yes, the inside does look very much like the picture (thanks for the info!) except the board appears to be nailed down with tiny 'brad' nails like carpet tacks. I'll look at it a little more closely when I get home, but it doesn't appear that the action is accessible without pulling nails and I'm leery of doing that.

 

Huh, nailed? If you can double-check on that and get some photos that'd be great. It's certainly possible (but unlikely) that there's some other screws somewhere that unfasten the board, but failing that you probably will have to get the brands out (and replace them with screws?) if you ever need to work on the buttons/levers/valves.

 

Are these brads holding the reeblocks onto the boards, or are there also brads (and not screws) holding the board onto the "end" (the plastic shell)?

 

I'm looking forward to reading the replies about troubleshooting your reeds; that's something I need to do on some of my beaters. I'm curious as to what degree the issue can be trouble-shot to pad issues, improper sealing between chambers, or gunked-up reeds (fluff? corrosion?).

 

All in all, it's in remarkable shape for the age of it.

 

I've similarly had good luck with older Italian boxes: mine haven't been in great condition, but probably not a whole lot worse than they started in. Just my view, but I think the board here has a particularly harsh view of the beaters because a lot of folks serious enough to hang around a concertina forum will have ponied up for much nicer concertinas, and have realised how inferior the cheapies are. But that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of more casual players of cheapies who enjoy them, and also folks playing serious 'boxes who started on worse than yours. So long as it's not bad enough to discourage you, it's something to learn on.

Edited June 26, 2012 by MatthewVanitas