Fingering patterns on an EC

[Don Taylor]

I am a newbie, so this question may not make any real sense ...

 

I have a Jack baritone and I am finding that the lower keys, say c (which the tutors all, understandably, begin with and focus upon) are too low to be pleasant for melodies. Plus the Jack's responsiveness and tone on the lower notes leaves something to be desired. Maybe I should be going up an octave for c on a baritone? I know that I would soon run out of notes on a Jack, but let's say I bought a Geordie baritone which does have a higher range than the Jack. On the other-hand, if I bought a tenor or treble then I can imagine that I would want to come down an octave for g, for example.

 

So in both cases, I think that I would want to be able to play the alternate basic fingering pattern.

 

So here is my question, should I try to develop both fingering patterns right from the beginning before the normal pattern gets deeply grooved in my brain? Or, should I concentrate on the normal fingering pattern only and then try to adapt later?

 

I realise that the Jack is very limiting in this regard, but I can get through some of the tutorials in c in both octaves (I am using the book that came with my Jack and the Butler book more or less interchangeably). I plan to try to do this (practice both octaves) from now on unless I am convinced that this is a bad idea.

 

A related question is what should I buy next. Given that I prefer the lower (but no too low) ranges should I be looking for a baritone with more top end, or a tenor? Right now I am looking at the two versions of the Morse Geordie. I don't think that a treble makes sense for me.

 

If I had the money then buying both Geordies would mean (I think) that I could stick with one fingering pattern. Or I could keep the Jack and buy a Tenor Geordie and maybe stick with one fingering pattern although I might want to migrate to just using the Geordie but with two fingering patterns. Or, I could just trade the Jack for a baritone Geordie and learn two fingering patterns. I might be able to swing (that is persuade my better half) that I should keep the Jack and buy a tenor Geordie, but buying two Geordies at the same time ain't going to happen.

 

Thx. Don.

[Johanna]

Being able to play the same melody in different keys or in different octaves is a useful skill to have. Whether it's useful for you to be developing it right now, only you can say. It sounds like you've hit on the right strategy: keep playing the exercises in both octaves if it's not too confusing, but if it is, then stop.

 

Another option would be to transpose up a fifth - take an exercise that's printed in C, but play it in G. Then you can keep basically the same fingering pattern - all you have to do is add in the F-sharps where appropriate.

[Geoff Wooff]

I certainly agree with Johanna's advice. Learning to play a piece an octave above or below that written and/or playing it in a different key is all usefull training on the English. I would take it a stage further, especially if your instrument has a limited range, to play a piece just one Key up or down; say, for instance, your tune starts with a C note, then when you have the melody well fixed in your head try starting the tune on D or Bb. This completely reverses the button patern and trains you to find the notes by ear and you get to know the keyboard more fully. This exercise can, of course, be extended so that you play a tune in every key.

 

Another suggestion is to think in "button paterns" as opposed to "finger paterns".. .. perhaps this is only a small difference and might appear to be an odd thing to say but, it is the Buttons that need to be pressed and any finger that can convieniently press a button at the right moment is the one to use. When playing more complex pieces it might become necessary to 'organise' fingerings in a different way to your normal patern.

 

Your question concerning which instrument to purchase next is one that I cannot answer, only to say how lucky you are to have the choice these days. Originally the vast majority of EC players would have started with a 48key Treble; it has the range of the Violin. I can see that the problem with the Jack and Jackie is one of limited range and that is an unfortunte side effect of making a decent instrument at a budget price. To me these 'starter' instruments are like a free sample pack, a taster to get you interested.

So, you basically need more range to effectively play the EC... perhaps many of us do not play the very highest notes often but they come with the package and it can be suprising but you may need them someday. From my point of view three and a half octaves is a minimum and four octaves would be better.

 

Wishing you luck with your playing,

Geoff.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Geoff Wooff

[kevin toner]

I also concur with Johanna.

 

I find moving up or down a row or two or more (ie in 5ths) helps to build dexterity and memorisation; and as like Geoff points out it can help evolve your understanding of the neighbouring key signatures a 5th up.

 

I discussed doing this recently too as an exercise to see how a Mod16 B-T would feel to me (compared with my T-T) as this model of EC brings in an extra row of lower keys by presumably shunting the keys up by one row (a 5th) on the exact same layout to make way for the extra lower notes. An aside: I think the model 16 loses no high notes by adding 8 more buttons at the top.

[Johanna]

Another thing: I would not assume that the low notes on a Morse (Geordie or Albion) baritone will be as cranky as the equivalent notes on a Jack. The responsiveness and tone of a reed depends on how the reed is made, not just on what the note is. Melodies that are "too low to be pleasant" in the low octave on the Jack may sound just fine on the Morse.

 

I've never played a Morse, though. Before you decide which one to get, you should talk to someone who has. If there's a way you can have a go on one yourself, that's even better.

 

You might find that you don't need the bigger range of the Geordie after all (and might do just fine with an Albion, for example). There is plenty of music you can make in two and a half octaves. Don't assume that you absolutely must have a larger range unless the music that you're trying to play tells you that you do.

[Don Taylor]

A lot of great advice to digest here, but after a quick try at playing in G while looking at the music in C the (perhaps blindingly obvious) thought occurred to me.

 

That the musical staff could be be viewed as not showing the absolute notes, but rather the intervals to be played whatever the key, with the key signature telling you which intervals have to be tweaked up or down to make it sound right in one particular key.

 

Is this true or useful?

 

If it is (and I never learned to read music before picking up the concertina a few weeks ago so I am just making this up as I go) then I think that it might make me think rather differently about how to approach things.

 

 

Don.

[Geoff Wooff]

 

 

That the musical staff could be be viewed as not showing the absolute notes, but rather the intervals to be played whatever the key, with the key signature telling you which intervals have to be tweaked up or down to make it sound right in one particular key.

 

Is this true or useful?

 

If it is (and I never learned to read music before picking up the concertina a few weeks ago so I am just making this up as I go) then I think that it might make me think rather differently about how to approach things.

 

 

Don.

 

 

Yes, this is true Don. How usefull it is to you might depend on how your head works.

 

Another point about this which relates to the English keyboard is that you can pick a button to start a scale and as you progress to the next note play the 'natural' (C scale) note and if it sounds wrong for your new scale then press the button next to your C scale note and it will be the right one. The Caveat is that this will only work for the keys of Eb,Bb,F,C,G,D,A and E (in other words key signatures of three b's through to Four #'s), the keys of Ab,B,C# and F# (majors)

will defy the left-right-left-right patern at times.

[Johanna]

Another point about this which relates to the English keyboard is that you can pick a button to start a scale and as you progress to the next note play the 'natural' (C scale) note and if it sounds wrong for your new scale then press the button next to your C scale note and it will be the right one. The Caveat is that this will only work for the keys of Eb,Bb,F,C,G,D,A and E (in other words key signatures of three b's through to Four #'s), the keys of Ab,B,C# and F# (majors)

will defy the left-right-left-right patern at times.

The Jack (as well as the Jackie and the various 30-button Stagis) is a bit more limiting in this regard. The standard English keyboard, of course, has both G# and Ab, and both D# and Eb, so you can reach for whichever is more convenient in the key you're playing in. But the Jack has only one of each in each octave, so you have to break from the left-right-left-right pattern more often. Still, you can play in keys with up to two sharps or flats with no problem.

 

Getting back to Don's question: Yes, looking at printed music as a series of intervals rather than absolute notes can be a useful way to look at it. In addition to being able to transpose to different keys, it has the advantage that you can read music in "weird" clefs (of which there are many), not just the standard treble and/or bass.

 

But I think it's even more useful to look at printed music as a crutch that you want to rid yourself of (for a particular tune) as soon as you possibly can. It's good for learning what the tune is in the first place, but you can't really claim to have mastered a tune until you have it in your ears and your brain and your fingers, so that you no longer need your eyes on the page. Once you know a tune by heart (not just by memory) you can work out how to play it in whatever key or octave you like.

 

This is something that I never really "got" until I started playing concertina (despite more years than I care to admit of piano and violin lessons in my younger days). It came as something of a revelation.

[Don Taylor]

Another suggestion is to think in "button paterns" as opposed to "finger paterns".. ..

 

Geoff et al.

 

This has been quite a revelation to me. As a beginner, I am quite intimidated by the prospect of all of those key signatures but now I am just starting a tune off where I like and then adjusting (very haltingly) as I go. It is fun, and my Jack sounds and plays much better in G than it does in C.

 

Anyway, to return to your suggestion above, I wonder if instead of finger patterns or button patterns maybe I should think in terms of interval patterns: up one button on the same side is a fifth, across diagonally on the same side is a third, etc... Maybe that is what you meant by button patterns?

 

Don.

[Geoff Wooff]

Another suggestion is to think in "button paterns" as opposed to "finger paterns".. ..

 

Geoff et al.

 

This has been quite a revelation to me. As a beginner, I am quite intimidated by the prospect of all of those key signatures but now I am just starting a tune off where I like and then adjusting (very haltingly) as I go. It is fun, and my Jack sounds and plays much better in G than it does in C.

 

Anyway, to return to your suggestion above, I wonder if instead of finger patterns or button patterns maybe I should think in terms of interval patterns: up one button on the same side is a fifth, across diagonally on the same side is a third, etc... Maybe that is what you meant by button patterns?

 

Don.

 

 

 

 

Yes Don, that is part of it indeed... which is why I do not approve of certain note omissions on these 'starter models' because they might break the patterns.

 

What I mean by Button Patterns, as opposed to finger patterns, is simply a small change in thinking that can be helpfull when playing more complex pieces. So, right from the outset as a beginner it is easy to get into a mold, playing tunes in just certain keys and having a, sort of, default fingering, however, when the pieces get more complex and the key signatures move further away from C it becomes increasingly important to 'get a finger to a button' any finger and combinations thereof that will allow free flow of a passage of music.

 

A further suggestion; either pick each new piece to learn with a view to learning to play in a different key or take your comfortably leaned piece and transpose it into all the keys you can manage.

 

Cheers,

Geoff.

[Anglo-Irishman]

This has been quite a revelation to me. As a beginner, I am quite intimidated by the prospect of all of those key signatures but now I am just starting a tune off where I like and then adjusting (very haltingly) as I go. It is fun, and my Jack sounds and plays much better in G than it does in C.

 

Don,

 

This is a very important observation you've made.

 

I'm a singer and multi-instrumentalist, and I've found that instruments, like singers, each have an optimal range of notes, within which tunes sound best. If you ask four singers to sing a familiar song wothout giving them a reference note, the soprano, alto, tenor and bass will most probably sing it in different keys. Each will choose the key that puts the range of the song near the middle of the singer's vocal range.

 

Over the years, I've learned to play instrumental versions of the songs I sing, and interestingly the instrumental versions fall into different keys from the vocal versions. The autoharp, which transposes very easily, is a case in point. I can accompany a given song very nicely in C major, for example, but the autoharp solo has to be in F or G to really get the melody into its middle range. In C, it sounds either rumbly or tinkly.

 

And there's another version of the above experiment. Get one singer to sing several familiar songs, again without a reference note to start with, and the chances are that he or she will sing different songs in different keys. This is because there are different kinds of tune - "authentic" ones, which never drop below the key note, and "plagial" ones, which may go as much as a fifth below the key note. As a singer - or an instrument - you have to ensure that the highest and lowest notes are within your range, and that most of the notes are in your comfortable, resonant middle range. For tunes with a very wide highest-note to lowest-note range, like the "Londonderry Air" AKA "Danny Boy", your choice of key can be very limited.

 

When composers or arrangers score for a particular instrument or voice, they take this into account. Playing a violin score on a cello is not going to sound very good, and I as a baritone wouldn't even attempt a Schubert Lied in the soprano setting! Similarly, a score for treble EC is not going to sound optimal on a baritone EC, even if you play it an octave lower. On the other hand, I believe a violin score works well on a treble EC, because the ranges are the same.

You've noticed that the tunes you're working with at present sound better in G than in C on your Jack; you may find that there are other tunes that sound quite all right in C.

 

So keep on exploring, and just bear in mind that the choice of key is not arbitrary, and that it is linked more to the instrument than to the tune itself.

By the way, singers do not regard a tune as a sequence of notes; they regard it as a sequence of intervals. So learning to "feel" the intervals on your concertina helps you to transpose tunes until they fit the instrument!

 

Hope this helps,

Cheers,

John

[JohnMoncton]

Regarding the baritone Geordie, the low A on the left hand side and the low B & G on the right are slower than the other notes, but you learn to work with it.

Push with vigor on the low notes, caress the high notes, and it all works out.