Springs and speed of response

[michael sam wild]

I am having my Jeffries 26b C/G Anglo overhauled and have been fortunate, in the interim, to have been playing in sessions on a Suttner C/G. I am very impressed by the response when playing Irish reels. What experience of replacing springs have others had?. How critical is spring metal. Or is it the overall quality of a modern Suttner?

 

I normally work on the 'If it works don't fix it but this has made me think'. On older melodeons I have used stronger springs and other dodges to improve reponse.

[richard]

Hello

 

As I have played longer and improved I have gradually had my spring pressure made as light as a skilled crafts person can get it(while still keeping the pad from leaking air). I think that is optimal. Your fingers learn to just kiss the buttons, and not have to use more muscle force to "press". I think it is optimal with the lightest pressure.

 

"Speed of response" I believe is a different issue. Isn't that determined by the quality of the reed and the way it is set up in the shoe? "Speed of response" I believe is how quickly the reed responds (making sound) to the smallest amount of air pressure.So the better reed the sooner it will start to sing when air moves passed it. That is why better instruments with better reeds can be played with a greater dynamic range because they will sing with even the softest(smallest)amount of air pressure.

 

Please correct me someone.

 

Richard

Edited June 6, 2012 by richard

[Chris Ghent]

Richard, you are right, many people confuse the spring pressure with the response. If you find yourself able to keep up on a new concertina it is likely to be the quality of the reeds that is making the difference.

 

A good reed can be set to respond to the slightest pressure as you say, but some, many Irish players for example, prefer a higher set which does not play quietly so well but can withstand sudden full force without choking.

[michael sam wild]

I notice on the borrowed Suttner I am keeping my fingers closer to the buttons and 'kissing' is a good description. On the Jeffries I keep a higher finger action and come down a bit harder.

 

 

 

I am wondering whether the handle height is different and will make a comparison to see whether the angle of approach is different.

 

Lots to think about, you do tend to get used to what you play most and we don't get our hands on too many excellent instruments for any length of time .

[JimLucas]

...we don't get our hands on too many excellent instruments for any length of time .

No such thing as "too many".

[richard]

Hi

 

I don't have too many and each one is bit different in size and,spring pressure,and reed playing character. I find moving from one to another and having to adjust to each one helpful to my playing in general.

 

Richard

[michael sam wild]

What is the most responsive concertina our readers have ever played, not necessarily owned?

[ttonon]

In considering the effect of key force on musical performance, it might be helpful to think from the perspective of an accomplished piano player. Piano keys require much more force to play than do concertina keys - especially considering the fact that the piano accommodates dynamic response and the concertina does not. With this in mind, I doubt there's anyone here who would claim that the piano player is somehow more hindered in his/her musical expression or speed. I thus tend to think that personal preference is the largest determining factor on what the right spring pressure ought to be.

 

Regards,

Tom

[d.elliott]

Richard, you are right, many people confuse the spring pressure with the response. If you find yourself able to keep up on a new concertina it is likely to be the quality of the reeds that is making the difference.

 

A good reed can be set to respond to the slightest pressure as you say, but some, many Irish players for example, prefer a higher set which does not play quietly so well but can withstand sudden full force without choking.

 

 

 

The critical elements in spring pressure are :

 

1. consistency in feel across the key board. This can be a set up determined feature rather than a metallurgical characteristic

2. enough force to keep the pad shut on long levered pads.

 

I use phosphor bronze wire, in the half hard condition, they have a longer life, and are better to shape and adjust. The actual spring pressure, a bit heavy or a bit light are soon got used to by the player, unless it is extreme.

 

As to responsiveness:

 

3, valve condition and leather suitability

4, reed grade and air gaps around the tongue relative to the reed frame in a 'flat' position

5, reed set or gap between the reed tip and the top surface of the reed frame

6, on longer reed the the shape of the reed set is important

7, reed tongue material strength, brass steel, nickel

8, reed material 'belly' thickness after years of play and tuning, even method of tuning

9. adequate pad lift over the pad hole

10, firmly retained into the pad board, not loose!

 

 

Good grade steel reeds that are well tempered but not soft,( tempered straw tuning to blue is best), close set into their frame, not over filed -or ground- in years gone by, with no deep corrosion pitting and an even cross section can be set & gapped, fitted with good valves, retained firmly under a well set up action & thus can virtually always be made responsive. Start failing on any of these conditions and responsiveness will fall off. Responsiveness, in my experience, is usually the sum of a lot of things done well.

 

hope this helps

 

Dave

[michael sam wild]

Thanks folks so many things to get right then! What about the reed chamber shape and dimensions? radial v rectangular?

[Frank Edgley]

In considering the effect of key force on musical performance, it might be helpful to think from the perspective of an accomplished piano player. Piano keys require much more force to play than do concertina keys - especially considering the fact that the piano accommodates dynamic response and the concertina does not. With this in mind, I doubt there's anyone here who would claim that the piano player is somehow more hindered in his/her musical expression or speed. I thus tend to think that personal preference is the largest determining factor on what the right spring pressure ought to be.

 

Regards,

Tom

Not quite the same thing. A pianist can use his hands and arms, while a concertinist can only use his fingers.

[ttonon]

In considering the effect of key force on musical performance, it might be helpful to think from the perspective of an accomplished piano player. Piano keys require much more force to play than do concertina keys - especially considering the fact that the piano accommodates dynamic response and the concertina does not. With this in mind, I doubt there's anyone here who would claim that the piano player is somehow more hindered in his/her musical expression or speed. I thus tend to think that personal preference is the largest determining factor on what the right spring pressure ought to be.

 

Regards,

Tom

Not quite the same thing. A pianist can use his hands and arms, while a concertinist can only use his fingers.

 

That's a good point, and it must have some influence on dexterity. In fact, a professional classical pianist I know said that it's his arms that really do the playing. At least this is how he approaches it from his mental perspective. But there's still a detail here wherein the entire force against the key is experienced by the fingers, being transmitted then to the hands. If the keys were pressed by vertically coming down on them with the fingers perpendicular to the keyboard, then the finger muscles would play little role, and the force will be transmitted to the hand through compression of the bone and cartilage. But that's impossible, and finger muscles, with varying degrees of mechanical advantage, are the first line of action on the keys.

 

Tom

[michael sam wild]

An Anglo player will use percussive finger movement to get more attack on the push, as that forces the bellows in, obviously not the same on buttons/reeds that play on the draw

[JimLucas]

An Anglo player will use percussive finger movement to get more attack on the push, as that forces the bellows in, obviously not the same on buttons/reeds that play on the draw

I don't think so.

1. Percussive striking with the fingers can give stronger attack on the buttons, but it can't force the bellows in, because the fingers are levered off the hand bars, which are fixed to the ends and so cannot be slower than the bellows movement. Any inward force on the bellows actually comes from the arms and potentially from the wrists, but not independently from the fingers. I'm pretty sure that if you pay close attention you'll find that when percussive striking of the fingers is accompanied by additional force on the bellows, that force is really coming from the arms and/or wrists. When I try it, I find that the force behind the finger movement actually comes from a sharp movement of my arms.
    
   
2. A similar effect can also be produced on the pull, at least if the hand straps aren't too loose. In that case, I find that the sharp finger strike comes from a sudden flexing of the wrist as I pull outward with the arms. But again, the finger isn't independently affecting the bellows movement, neither positively nor negatively.
   

[michael sam wild]

Fair enough Jim but that's what it feels like and as other fingers strike the end plate too and it's what I intend it works

Edited June 17, 2012 by michael sam wild

[Anglo-Irishman]

fair enough Jim but that's what it feels like and as other fingers strike the end plate tooand it's what I intend and it works

 

Michael,

 

I think the words "feel" and "intend" are the key.

 

Ancdote from my early teens:

We had both a piano and a harmonium in the house at that time. My Mum played both, having learned the piano and "taken up" the harmonium later. I was into musical instruments at the time, and mentioned one day that the difference between the piano and the (free-reed) harmonium was that the piano's volume depended on your finger pressure, but the harmonium's didn't. Mum protested that she could play the harmonium espressively the same way as the piano, and proceeded to do so, with loud and soft passages.

I then got her to try again, but I crawled under the bench and worked the harmonium pedals with my hands. Mum varied her finger pressure as before, but everything came out at the same volume.

 

Q.E.D.!

 

However, had we had a camcorder back then, videos of her playing the same piece with the same expression on piano and harmonium would have looked the same!

When you want to get louder on the piano, you lean slightly forward, and when you want to get quiet, you lean slightly back. Leaning forward puts the weight of your shoulders more directly over your fi ngers, and the angle of your elbows narrows, giving you a stronger leverage. Leaning back takes the weight off your hands, and also straighens the elbows slightly, making them weaker. As a trained pianist, Mum did this instinctively.

 

She also did it on the harmonium, through force of pianist habit. But of course, when you lean forward, you also put more weight on your feet and narrow the angle of the hip, giving the legs more leverage. Leaning back, you have less weight on the feet, and the hip is straighter and has less leverage. And of course this influences the force with which you pump the pedals to work the bellows.

 

So when Mum intended to play the harmonium louder or softer, she did the right thing for the wrong reason, but out of the right feeling!

 

I find that leaning in and out also works on the concertina. If you browse YouTube, the concertinists who sit stiff and rigid tend to play less expressively than those who "go with the music."

 

Cheers,

John

[michael sam wild]

Thanks John that was helpful! So, if I understand it, I have been unconsciously unconscious of what I intended and am now consciously conscious of what I am doing. Now to make it unconciously concious and all should be well! That's learning for you. Hope the concertina understands that

[Anglo-Irishman]

Hope the concertina understands that

 

Mike,

 

Just remember that a concertina is dumber than a human being, but more intelligent than a musician!

 

Cheers,

John