Bellows across the knee?

[michael sam wild]

I know that people advise against wearing out the leather but I am beginning to find it is more responsive. At workshops I've attended Harry Scurfield (Anglo) and Rob Harbron (EC) have both suggested it makes sense to use the natural 'fall' of the bellows in this way with the bellows like an arched bridge. They both said it might necessitate new or repaired bellows every 20 years or so! So any views?.

 

In Bertram Levy's new tutor ( I think ) he recommended that you imagine a ball of gel inside the bellows and compress and release it. That seems to fit with balancing the bellws across the knee.

 

I adopted the right end on the right knee at the outset as I hold the melodeon stady and push the bellows from the left end. I am now finding the balanced method helps.

 

I realise it's been talked about before but in the light of the veiws of people I respect I just wondered if it was worth resurrecting the discussion

Edited March 19, 2012 by michael sam wild

[Geoff Wooff]

In forty years of concertina playing I have yet to put any serious wear on any of the bellows that have passed through my hands. These were all old-original bellows and I do tend to play a bit 'across the knee'. I now have for the first time a concertina with a New Bellows... I am certainly not going to worry about putting a little wear on them, at my age, when I could get new 'top runs' put on in twenty years time if I am still alive.

Bellows are a consumable item like 'brake pads' and if you are more comfortable with an across the knee position and your music is improved or more natural because of this then why not.

[David Levine]

What Geoff said.

[Chris Ghent]

Its yours, use it how you like and fix it when it needs it...

[michael sam wild]

Any comments on the mechanics or dynamics of that way of playing across the knee?.

[Geoff Wooff]

Any comments on the mechanics or dynamics of that way of playing across the knee?.

 

 

I have a mental picture in my mind of the old players like Pakie Russell, Tom Carey, Michaleen Conlon etc., playing with the bellows centrally placed on their knee and the ends would hang downwards a little and both hands would be moving in and out. This helps, perhaps, to shuffle the music along in a bouncy, springy way. Is it also possible that the hand that was not complexly involved in fingering at one point would be the hand that made the pull or push ? I really cannot say because I am not an Anglo player and I was concentrating more on listening to their wonderfull music and trying to play along.

 

So I am no help to you there

Edited March 20, 2012 by Geoff Wooff

[michael sam wild]

Peter Laban and others may have some photos of traditional players to help answer the question.

I've just spent an interesting 45 minutes looking and listening to Youtube clips of 30 well known professional or traditional Anglo players and the results seem to be

LL( left end on left knee) 11

R R 10

Central on either knee 9

 

 

Some use various, Noel Hill at 14 years was C and is now LL

Edited March 20, 2012 by michael sam wild

[Rod]

Peter Laban and others may have some photos of traditional players to help answer the question.

I've just spent an interesting 45 minutes looking and listening to Youtube clips of 30 well known professional or traditional Anglo players and the results seem to be

LL( left end on left knee) 11

R R 10

Central on either knee 9

 

 

Some use various, Noel Hill at 14 years was C and is now LL

 

Michael, I wonder if choice of knee relates in any way to whether a player is left-handed or right-handed, but I also wonder if I care what the answer is !

[Johanna]

So how strange is it that I play (English) with the left end on my right knee? When I first started playing, I had an injury that meant I couldn't bend my left wrist, and that was the only configuration that worked. I've been fully recovered for a while now, but it still feels more comfortable that way than any other.

[Ransom]

So how strange is it that I play (English) with the left end on my right knee?

 

I don't think I'm doing that now, but I certainly did it for a while. Not from any injury, either... just sort of happened that way.

[david_boveri]

EDIT: posted before i finished.

Edited March 21, 2012 by david_boveri

[david_boveri]

many older style players had very floppy bellows control, just as flute players used to be breathy and out of tune and fiddlers tended to be scratchy. part of the floppiness was that they placed the bellows on the lap (knee is not strictly accurate), but that is not the full picture: floppiness comes from limp wrists. john williams plays with his bellows on the knee and edel fox plays with them fully rooted and grazing against it. beyond that i have seen other players with their bellows on the lap. although the jury is still out on damage to the bellows (i believe it), bellows WILL learn the position they are in if it is always the same, especially with a fanned arch position over the knee. i have seen that with my own eyes, and john has told me his concertinas "learn" his particular squeezing tendencies.

 

over the years i have tried just about every possible bellows position, including all the possibilities sitting, standing and laying down. they all have their benefits and problems. behind the head, for example, is a great trick and not too hard. behind your rear end, on the other hand, is very difficult and puts a lot more stress on the bellows than i care to do. i find standing up is great in the vamped english style and definitely possible in the irish style, but at the expense of making ornamentation very difficult. for example, you will find that brian peters holds up the concertina

, but lower if the tune is very easy. he told me himself that it is a matter of control for his particular style of holding the concertina.

 

if we are going to talk about evenness and clarity of tone, in my experience bellows on your lap offers the easiest path. however, all your notes will tend to be shaped the same with the same dynamics and attack. clarity of attack may suffer on ornamentation depending on your style and you may find that certain reeds may be slow to respond from the bellows on lap position.

 

as for putting the ends on the lap, there are many variations. you can put the right or left end of the concertina on either leg, or even BOTH, with one on each leg. i have never seen someone put both ends but not the bellows on their legs, but i have done it many times. right end on right leg offers great control for playing in octaves, at the expense of tone colors for the low notes on the left hand side. i myself most often play with the left end on my left leg. i find that this offers greatest control of tone and attack, although if you play as aggressively as i do it can be difficult to get the the higher notes to not sound jagged.

 

many people keep the left leg position with a static bellows control. however, i find that a slightly dynamic attack, as in

, really makes the left ends on left leg position sparkle. personally, i think that the right leg / right side position as

offers the perfect balance of control and ease of tone. if i don't watch myself i tend to choke low note pull reeds for the left/left position when playing aggressively in large rooms, but not on the right/right position. so, if i am having trouble with my octaves playing, i might switch to the right leg and then try to replicate the clarity of sound i got on right/right with left/left.

 

the other variations are not so common or worth talking about, but it is important to note that if you are going to do an ends on leg, rather than bellows on leg, it is important to consider setting up an anchor with one of the corners. it reduce stress on the carpal tunnel in your wrist and allows for less wobbling in the bellows for a cleaner in and out. most players recommend tilting it outwards a few degrees and using the outside corner on your leg. mairéad corridan gave general feedback at the midwest fleadh last year to "find a point on your leg and stick to it until it leaves a permanent mark," which was said as a joke to emphasize how important it is. elsewhere i have described the noel hill approach, which he describes as setting up an anchor.

 

there are many more considerations in tone control, such as where on your leg you place the instrument, the angles of your elbows, and to what extent you use the big muscles in your shoulders and chest. although i have not really ever seen it discussed, finger control and tension can affect articulation and control as well, beyond the mere influence of high-finger placement causing sloppy note separation or sporadic rhythm.

[Chris Drinkwater]

Personally, when it comes to playing the English concertina, I think Alistair Anderson's way of standing up and holding the concertina in the air, gives the best control over the bellows, leading to a greater ability to create the dynamics and expression needed to make a tune sound more interesting. Anyone who has a watched a copy of Alistair's new tuition DVD, will know what I mean. Whilst I would like to emulate Alistair's way of holding the concertina, myself, having tried a few times, I find at present that my concertina, a metal-ended treble, is too heavy for me to sustain it. Right from the start of my playing, I found it most comfortable to place the right-hand end of my concertina on my right knee. This gives me all the stability I need and bellows wear is near non-existent as the bellows are just out of range of friction, and this is the way I still position it. Anyone who plays with the bellows resting on the knee and is worried about causing wear on their bellows, can always lessen the wear by spreading a soft cloth across one's lap, first.

 

Chris

[SteveS]

Anyone who plays with the bellows resting on the knee and is worried about causing wear on their bellows, can always lessen the wear by spreading a soft cloth across one's lap, first.

Which is exactly how I play my EC.

[d.elliott]

I know that people advise against wearing out the leather but I am beginning to find it is more responsive. At workshops I've attended Harry Scurfield (Anglo) and Rob Harbron (EC) have both suggested it makes sense to use the natural 'fall' of the bellows in this way with the bellows like an arched bridge. They both said it might necessitate new or repaired bellows every 20 years or so! So any views?.

 

In Bertram Levy's new tutor ( I think ) he recommended that you imagine a ball of gel inside the bellows and compress and release it. That seems to fit with balancing the bellws across the knee.

 

I adopted the right end on the right knee at the outset as I hold the melodeon stady and push the bellows from the left end. I am now finding the balanced method helps.

 

I realise it's been talked about before but in the light of the veiws of people I respect I just wondered if it was worth resurrecting the discussion

 

I always advise not playing across the knee, it is not because of leather wearing, that is easy to fix, it is because it puts a lot of stress onto the inner concertina glued joints. this can cause inner hinges to split and then the card skeleton of the bellows to fail. new bellows will be fine but old and original bellows will be vulnerable. The shape of the concertina will add to the vulnerability. Edeophones with their near round cross section are especially 'floppy' and thus vulnerable, however six sided concertinas will hold up better for longer. Never the less the concertinas exist for music, to be played as the musician desires. Bellows in the end are consumable items, with a life of tens of years so why worry?

 

it is a team effort, you play, you break, I fix, you pay, daughters spend............ and so life goes on.

 

Dave

[d.elliott]

I know that people advise against wearing out the leather but I am beginning to find it is more responsive. At workshops I've attended Harry Scurfield (Anglo) and Rob Harbron (EC) have both suggested it makes sense to use the natural 'fall' of the bellows in this way with the bellows like an arched bridge. They both said it might necessitate new or repaired bellows every 20 years or so! So any views?.

 

In Bertram Levy's new tutor ( I think ) he recommended that you imagine a ball of gel inside the bellows and compress and release it. That seems to fit with balancing the bellws across the knee.

 

I adopted the right end on the right knee at the outset as I hold the melodeon stady and push the bellows from the left end. I am now finding the balanced method helps.

 

I realise it's been talked about before but in the light of the veiws of people I respect I just wondered if it was worth resurrecting the discussion

 

I always advise not playing across the knee, it is not because of leather wearing, that is easy to fix, it is because it puts a lot of stress onto the inner concertina glued joints. this can cause inner hinges to split and then the card skeleton of the bellows to fail. new bellows will be fine but old and original bellows will be vulnerable. The shape of the concertina will add to the vulnerability. Edeophones with their near round cross section are especially 'floppy' and thus vulnerable, however six sided concertinas will hold up better for longer. Never the less the concertinas exist for music, to be played as the musician desires. Bellows in the end are consumable items, with a life of tens of years so why worry?

 

it is a team effort, you play, you break, I fix, you pay, daughters spend............ and so life goes on.

 

Dave

[gcoover]

Anyone who plays with the bellows resting on the knee and is worried about causing wear on their bellows, can always lessen the wear by spreading a soft cloth across one's lap, first.

Which is exactly how I play my EC.

 

I've seen this done a few times, but if you're wearing pants (or a dress), what is the need for the extra cloth? It's the wooden end that would be resting on the leg, so I wouldn't think an extra cloth would accomplish anything, just something else to tote around. Perhaps if you use a designer bar towel it would also make a fashion statement???

 

Gary

[BertramLevy]

In forty years of concertina playing I have yet to put any serious wear on any of the bellows that have passed through my hands. These were all old-original bellows and I do tend to play a bit 'across the knee'. I now have for the first time a concertina with a New Bellows... I am certainly not going to worry about putting a little wear on them, at my age, when I could get new 'top runs' put on in twenty years time if I am still alive.

Bellows are a consumable item like 'brake pads' and if you are more comfortable with an across the knee position and your music is improved or more natural because of this then why not.

 

AMEN BROTHER!!