Music question

[Brian McGee]

I just picked up a new book called "All-American Concertina Album" by Alan Lochhead. It's got some really cool stuff in it -- stuff that I don't usually see written for the anglo. He's transposed everything down an octave, though! So the B on the first key of the middle row, right hand is written 2 spaces below the treble clef, and at the bottom is a notation "All pitches sound one octave higher than written notation."

 

And he's written the right hand on the treble clef and the left hand on the bass clef -- which I suppose he MUST do since he's transposed everything down an octave.

 

Is this common for concertina music? It's blowing my mind trying to read it after spending the last few months reading O'Niell's and other stuff.

[kevin toner]

Very interesting to see the Mel Bay sample pages. There's however a drop of two [not one octave] on the bass clef, which signifies that it is not bass proper that is intended, but rather treble - i.e. by using a clef/stave per hand for convenience.

 

That said, it signifies at least a start in the transposing of Anglo playing, which I'd like to see more of. I'd like to see standard ornamentation rules written down for ITM concertina if there isn't already. There appears to be rules written for every other ITM instrument in the Ceol Rince na hÉireann series, but alas AC is not included in the list!

 

I'd prefer to see AC transposed music written on the one stave unfortunately as an EC player. However, if it is more convenient to do otherwise then that's great for AC readers, but beware that it's a contrived form and not a universal form of notation...

 

That said, they look like great tunes to learn and I might some day go to the trouble to buy/convert it onto single stave in my mind to hear how the tunes have been interpreted by an AC player. Again, interesting!

 

Kevin

Edited February 7, 2012 by kevin toner

[Brian McGee]

Very interesting to see the Mel Bay sample pages. There's however a drop of two [not one octave] on the bass clef, which signifies that it is not bass proper that is intended, but rather treble - i.e. by using a clef/stave per hand for convenience.

 

That said, it signifies at least a start in the transposing of Anglo playing, which I'd like to see more of. I'd like to see standard ornamentation rules written down for ITM concertina if there isn't already. There appears to be rules written for every other ITM instrument in the Ceol Rince na hÉireann series, but alas AC is not included in the list!

 

I'd prefer to see AC transposed music written on the one stave unfortunately as an EC player. However, if it is more convenient to do otherwise then that's great for AC readers, but beware that it's a contrived form and not a universal form of notation...

 

That said, they look like great tunes to learn and I might some day go to the trouble to buy/convert it onto single stave in my mind to hear how the tunes have been interpreted by an AC player. Again, interesting!

 

Kevin

 

 

Kevin,

 

I'm really a novice, so my opinion is formed based on little experience, but the experience I DO have suggests that doing weird special layouts like this for individual instruments makes it much harder to play music in a pick-up fashion. For instance, my sister the guitar player couldn't look at this and play along with me easily. Nor could my Dad on the tin whistle.

 

Writing music to the convenience of each individual instrument seems like it would work well if you have a multi-part score with music written for each instrument, but how many of us really play that way?

 

B

[kevin toner]

That's how bands did/do it I believe albeit much more common in the past.

 

I stand corrected regarding the bass clef being down an extra octave. Forgive my ignorance - I hadn't realised the C/G Anglo went down as low as tenor C, like the standard tenor-treble of the EC system.

 

I see in your book that the tenor C is a very common note - so I do believe that you will find some joy upon accomplishing these.

 

I stand by my suggestion that the tunes appear to be treble in nature, naturally as an Anglo player is not a pianist doing bass accompaniment. So your suggestion that this is a single instrument notation [for AC} is very true. However, the piece I'm sure will be rewarding to solo in its own right without proper bass accompaniment by another.

 

However, experimentally speaking, I'd be trying to acquire/compare the piano music in the same key and borrow at least the bass clef notation to be played by another player - possibly a low-reach Duet; extended baritone EC or lower; or at the very least a tenor-treble EC or another C/G AC player for that matter; or best yet perhaps a harpist/pianist [ps: or guitarist]. My worst fear is that it might clash or be too busy. Funnily, I'm trying to merge both the treble and bass playing into the one tenor-treble instrument - I don't know if you'd be able to do this on Anglo though (?)

 

Simple line notation, if you can find it, in the same key for the tin whistle might be even too busy if it doesn't unify well with the AC transcribed piece.

 

Matching-key guitar tablature is likely to be available for these too somewhere, perhaps online as a first port of call!

 

Kevin

Edited February 7, 2012 by kevin toner

[JimLucas]

Is this common for concertina music?

Simple answer... no.

Not just uncommon, but I've never heard of it before, though I've seen -- and used myself -- something similar, also with separate staves for each hand. What I do is write the left hand in the treble clef as it actually sounds and the right hand also in a treble clef (stacked above the left-hand staff just like a treble above the bass), but written an octave lower than it actually sounds. In fact, my right-hand clef is an "octave treble", i.e., with a little "8" dangling from its bottom to indicate that it's written an octave away from where it sounds. (This is a standard clef sometimes used for other instruments that do sound an octave higher than the fiddle or flute.)

 

Some time ago there was an extended discussion here on concertina.net of different notational conventions for the anglo... of which there are many. As I recall, quite a variety of ideas and preferences was displayed. If someone can find it and link to it, I think it could save us repeating a lot of stuff.

 

One thing I wonder about the book is whether the author's notations for push and pull work equally well for both Wheatstone and Jeffries layouts.

[JimLucas]

...the experience I DO have suggests that doing weird special layouts like this for individual instruments makes it much harder to play music in a pick-up fashion. For instance, my sister the guitar player couldn't look at this and play along with me easily. Nor could my Dad on the tin whistle.

Seems to me they could do so much more easily with this notation than with most other instrument-specific "tab".

• For the whistle and other one-note-at-a-time instruments, the melody is still there as itself and in standard musical notation, and written in the octave in which it is normally played, rather than the octave higher (in many cases) needed to keep it in the right hand of a standard anglo.
  
• For the piano, it's already in the piano-standard bass-clef-plus-treble-clef-notation, though the actual arrangements may not be suited to the piano.
  
• For the guitar, turning the lines of the bass clef into ledger lines should turn it into standard non-tablature guitar notation, except that the guitar is missing the low C of the C/G anglo. And as with the piano, even the arrangements that don't go below a low E may not really sit well on the guitar.
  

[Dirge]

 

I'm really a novice, so my opinion is formed based on little experience, but the experience I DO have suggests that doing weird special layouts like this for individual instruments makes it much harder to play music in a pick-up fashion. For instance, my sister the guitar player couldn't look at this and play along with me easily. Nor could my Dad on the tin whistle.

 

Writing music to the convenience of each individual instrument seems like it would work well if you have a multi-part score with music written for each instrument, but how many of us really play that way?

 

B

Damn right, and given that bespoke concertina music per se is fairly rare it's the last thing that should be done, because it not only stops the non concertinist reading that small amount of concertina music but doesn't allow the concertina player to browse the vast range of other instruments' music either.

 

All these alternatives to doing it properly are a form of dumbing down. Quicker to get to grips with but not as good as doing it properly. It means the book appears to work better because it is a little easier to get off the blocks for our beginner with a lot to cope with, but it does him no real favours.

[Brian McGee]

Is this common for concertina music?

Simple answer... no.

Not just uncommon, but I've never heard of it before, though I've seen -- and used myself -- something similar, also with separate staves for each hand. What I do is write the left hand in the treble clef as it actually sounds and the right hand also in a treble clef (stacked above the left-hand staff just like a treble above the bass), but written an octave lower than it actually sounds. In fact, my right-hand clef is an "octave treble", i.e., with a little "8" dangling from its bottom to indicate that it's written an octave away from where it sounds. (This is a standard clef sometimes used for other instruments that do sound an octave higher than the fiddle or flute.)

 

Some time ago there was an extended discussion here on concertina.net of different notational conventions for the anglo... of which there are many. As I recall, quite a variety of ideas and preferences was displayed. If someone can find it and link to it, I think it could save us repeating a lot of stuff.

 

One thing I wonder about the book is whether the author's notations for push and pull work equally well for both Wheatstone and Jeffries layouts.

 

Jim,

 

Well, his button layout (which has other problems) is the Jeffries layout, so people with Wheatstone layout will have issues with the C#/G/G#, etc, from the third row.

[kevin toner]

...the experience I DO have suggests that doing weird special layouts like this for individual instruments makes it much harder to play music in a pick-up fashion. For instance, my sister the guitar player couldn't look at this and play along with me easily. Nor could my Dad on the tin whistle.

Seems to me they could do so much more easily with this notation than with most other instrument-specific "tab".

• For the whistle and other one-note-at-a-time instruments, the melody is still there as itself and in standard musical notation, and written in the octave in which it is normally played, rather than the octave higher (in many cases) needed to keep it in the right hand of a standard anglo.
  
• For the piano, it's already in the piano-standard bass-clef-plus-treble-clef-notation, though the actual arrangements may not be suited to the piano.
  
• For the guitar, turning the lines of the bass clef into ledger lines should turn it into standard non-tablature guitar notation, except that the guitar is missing the low C of the C/G anglo. And as with the piano, even the arrangements that don't go below a low E may not really sit well on the guitar.
  

 

Your last point Jim, on guitar, is encouraging as the guitar is already conventionally and likewise written an octave higher i.e. in order to fit the notes onto the treble stave, which is why it sounds too bassy if played note for note.

 

This is good news because low tenor C is on the contrary actually included: it's at the 5th string 3rd fret so often assumed to be middle C (C4). I dont know if playing unison is the best idea, but definitely to be encouraged, only gravely unfair on the guitarist to be reading non-universally written notation as it has to be interpreted from 2 rather than 1 stave.

 

Jim, your 2nd last point, single-notes are usually already on piano sheet music: yes, but usually dedicated with a separate (3rd) treble stave at the top: called the voice, violin or whatever the preferred single instrument. And yes, very possible to extract/determine the single notes from the AC transcribed notation, but again very unfair to expect this of another instrumentalist who'd have to translate both staves as opposed to simply the one.

 

Kevin

Edited February 7, 2012 by kevin toner

[sidesqueeze]

I also have the "All-American Concertina Album" for anglo. The pieces are truly complex and the book has slipped way down in my stack of music, as I'n not feeling ready to tackle these yet. Besides, I'm not sure where I'd play those Sousa pieces!

 

The clef problem is daunting for most of us, and certainly not simple for me. But it brings up an interesting topic.

 

Reading music is a skill that comes in many levels of expertise. We usually start by reading large simple notes, then progress to a more complex mess with chords, tied notes, and syncopations. But there are higher degrees of musical literacy beyond that. A good conductor should be able to look at a full page score and reconstruct the music for a dozen different instruments in his/her head simultaneously, even the instruments that are written in transpositions (like trumpets, where what's written in Bb sounds in C).

 

Another scary bunch are the renaissance recorder ensembles, where a good player is expected to be able to sight read four or five clefs.

 

And there are some guitarists who have scored parts at concert pitch by using the split (piano) staff. Johnny Smith was one.

 

Reading music is an ongoing process and you continue to improve as you go. Sight reading is overrated, only top pros (or pianists) need to do that. For the rest of us, we use the music to refer to rather than memorizing everything we play.

[JimLucas]

Reading music is an ongoing process and you continue to improve as you go. Sight reading is overrated, only top pros (or pianists) need to do that. For the rest of us, we use the music to refer to rather than memorizing everything we play.

Just wondering how many different threads are currently beating to death discussing this seemingly eternal subject.

[sidesqueeze]

Jim,

 

If you're referring to the thread about reading in sessions, that's not what I meant. I'm talking about memorizing pieces that last for more than just a few minutes, like the pieces in the "All American Concertina Album."

 

I'm in complete agreement that written music has no place in sessions.

 

This was my only contribution to the subject, on ANY thread.