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I am new to these forums so hello everyone! I am seeking advice about my first concertina. I am hesitant to get into this instrument becasue i am unsure about its difficulty and the fact that there seems to be a shortage of concertina classes in New Jersey.

Which concertina is best for a beginner? Is the Honher Concetina any good?

and finally how hard is it to learn to play?

 

Please i would really like to learn more before i just jump into a rather expensive (for me at least) instrument.

 

Thankyou

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Hi Shanty Man,

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of concertinas and a great site!

 

The advice you seek has been given many times before so while you are waiting for knowledgable replies you may want to go through the General Discussion topics. I think you'll find lots of "What should I buy?" and "Just getting started" and reading these posts will give you lots of viewpioints and opinions.

 

The concertina.net Buyer's Guide will give you some ideas of what you can look forward to if you decide to stick with the concertina.

 

It may help some folks respond with suggestions if they have an idea of your "concertina budget".

 

I hope you enjoy your concertina adventure!

 

Greg

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Hi,

 

While I'm no where close to being an authority on concertina choices, I will give you my experience with my Hohner. First, I bought it to see if I could play and if I would like it. Turns out I can play and love it. However, after trying others (freinds, and freinds of freinds) I find that my hohner sounds a lot like a bicycle horn. But hey, I can deal with that for a while. Next, I only had the concertina for a week before I needed my first repair. I took it in the shop (of a freind) and watched as he fixed the broken valve. I'm glad I watch because I found that it wasn't that hard to fix. I have over the last six months repetedly adjusted levers and leaky valves. I also find that the cardboard-paper-and-tape bellows a bit stiff with not much chance of lasting for very long.

 

So what I am trying to say is, Hohner was nice to introduce me to concertinas, but It wasn't long at all before I "out grew" it. If I could to do it all over again, I would have borrowed a freinds, or see about renting one. Then if I were serious, buy the best quality one I could afford.

 

Those are my two cents,

Kim in CA

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Hi,

 

It might also be helpful if you said what type of music you like to play or listen to.

 

I had a 20 button Stagi that worked very well for me while I was learning. I only missed the C# for Irish music. I am glad I got an inexpensive (although a little more than a Hohner) first while I decided if this was an instrument for me.

 

However, I was very lucky. My instrument worked very well. Some people have lots of problems with sticking buttons.

 

I know other instruments are better quality, but I was hesitant to spend lots of money until I saw if this was something I could play.

 

Hope this helps a little bit.

 

Helen

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The concer ia a wonderful instrument for shanty singing IMHO. It is portable, pitched at voice range, loud enough. It is also possible to play and sing (unlike mouth organ, whistle etc.), but not necessarily easy.

I find it easier to play for other singers, and just join in the choruses.

A 20 button will give you a huge range of shanties to play - most don't need any accidentals.

As to how hard to learn - how long is a piece of string?

If you already play an instrument you have a head start. If it is a mouth organ, go for an anglo - you are a long way ahead.

And then - of course - no one ever finishes learning any instrument.

 

So keep the shanties alive!

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Hi,

 

Another source of info you might want to try is the Concertina FAQ.

 

Using the concertina to accompany shanties, eh? Historically, of course, there is only a little evidence that concertinas were used on shipboard. However, for some reason the Greaat Unwashed Public have a major link in their collective mind between concertinas and shellbacks, so go ahead and make use of it.

 

Personally I wouldn't use any instrument to accompany most shanties. A few(Shenandoah comes to mind) work quite well with concertina, but for most the pace and drive is obstructed by an accompaniment. Better to get a good shanty crew behind you. Forebitters, on the other hand, can be enhanced by a good accompaniment. At least, that's what I think, others may differ.

 

If you're looking at anglo concertinas (Hohner make both anglos and Englishes) bear in mind that they have limited keys. For instance, most are in C and G. Fortunately for me, that suits my voice quite well, but many people find that a little high, hence the popularity of the Bb/F with many singers (sadly, though, the Bb/F is much more dificult to get hold of than a C/G or G/D). So check your preferred keys for singing before buying.

 

This is less of a problem for the English concertina, because it is fully chromatic. Which you should buy is a matter of (very) personal taste. Really, you need to try them out. Whereabouts are you based? Ah, New Jersey. It's a longish run up to MA, I know, but if you ever get the chance to call in on the good folks at the Button Box, they should be able to let you try out all sorts of concertinas at many different price points. There's no substitute for it.

 

Shantyman, oh, shantyman,

Who's got a berth for a shantyman?

Sing us a song of a world gone wrong,

And they got no use for a shantyman. - Bob Watson

 

Chris

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Historically, of course, there is only a little evidence that concertinas were used on shipboard. However, for some reason the Greaat Unwashed Public have a major link in their collective mind between concertinas and shellbacks

The major link in the public mind is the evidence - what more do we need?

 

There never was any "official" instrument, but why on earth wouldn't the concertina be the sailor's first choice as an instrument.

 

It is tough and portable - we look after our classic instruments as if they were fragile, but they are not.

 

It is more "moisture-friendly" than most instruments, apart from the metal ends and steel reeds (and why else would so many wood-ended, brass reeded 20 button Lachenals have been made?) In its hexagonal case, and wrapped in an oiled cloth, it could stand very bad conditions - that would destroy a fiddle, guitar etc.

 

I have seen the suggestion that the button accordian would have been chosen since it was cheaper, and in fact there is evidence of accordians being used, but sailors are not notorious for their thrift, & I think that the convenience of the concertina would outweigh the cost factor.

 

On the issue of accompanying shanties - shanties were almost never accompanied, for the simple reason that that would put a pair of hands out of action. They were almost never sung in harmony, and were sung far slower than we usually hear them now. They were also not recorded, so all these statements are second hand and unverifiable.

 

Forebitters were accompanied, as were dances, and shanties were often used as forebitters, and probably to dance to as well.

 

Putting this together, none of the recordings of shanties we hear today are in any way "authentic" - in that they don't sound the way a person aboard a sailing ship at the time would have heard them. On the other hand they do sound good, and deserve to be heard.

 

Many shanties do sound better unaccompanied and sung in unison, but not necessarily all. If they are to be accompanied by any instrument - why not use the best available, the ----------?

 

Rod

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There never was any "official" instrument, but why on earth wouldn't the concertina be the sailor's first choice as an instrument.

You touched on it yourself: cost. Even the cheaper anglos and Englishes were way out of reach of the average sailor, whether thrifty or not. This is less true of the German concertina, but even that was relatively expensive compared to a sailor's wage.

 

Fact remains that of the photos I have seen over the years of sailors on square-riggers, I can recall only one that unquestionably showed a concertina, and rather more that showed fiddles and melodeons. Such evidence as I have seen, and I would welcome the comments of others, would suggest the fiddle was probably the most popular. After all, any competent woodworker should be able to make a fiddle-like instrument relatively easily, and I know that quite a few 18th and 19th century English country musicians made and played this sort of instrument.

 

So far as how shanties were sung and are sung now, I don't see that we are in disagreement.

 

Chris

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You touched on it yourself: cost.

I don't see the cost factor being significant.

 

In researching another subject, I spotted a Palings ad in the "Moreton Bay Courier" newspaper about 1912. (Palings was a Brisbane music shop right through until fairly recently).

 

It advertised concertinas and violins - here is part of it:

 

Concertinas:

 

German 3/6

Organ toned 9/-

Anglo-German 1/3/- (pound sign omitted)

Lachenal's English 3/10/-

Lachenal's newly improved steel reeds 4 guinies.

....

Solo violin 3/7/6

Artist's violin 7 guinies

....

Double row accordian 1/3/-

 

For comparison, in the same paper, another ad promised Scotch whiskey at 5/- a quart.

 

Note that the cheapest concertinas were much cheaper than the cheapest violins, or the button accordian. (Of course, the whiskey may have been deemed better value by many sailors of the period).

 

Surely if, some sailors used the violin (and there is no doubt about that), the cost argument cannot be used against the concertina.

 

Sailors, just home at the end of a long trip were (briefly) quite wealthy. It is easy to imagine someone starting with a mouth organ, on subsequent trips going on the the 3/6 German concertina, and then investing in a 2 row Lachenal.

 

 

Rod

 

(Edited because I accidently submitted it before finished).

Edited by Rod Thompson
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I think we're talking at cross-purposes here: I am trying to account for the fact that concertinas weren't popular with sailors, whilst you appear to be arguing on logical grounds that the concertina ought to have been popular with sailors, and therefore must have been. I'm not alone in my belief...

 

From Jersey's Maritime History:

"The type of musical instruments taken to sea have been many and varied. German ships were renowned for the quality of their shipboard musicians. On board many ships a scratch band or foo-foo band was formed by seamen for their own enjoyment.

 

At sea the fiddle has constantly been a favourite "dog-watch" instrument.

 

Fiddles, guitars, harmonicas, flutes and trumpets have all been popular. The reed instruments such as accordion and concertina were less so because they tended to rust up."

 

Or how about this comment on Pint & Dale from the maritime historian Joe Follansbee:

"Few of these groups feel bound by tradition, Pint and Dale in particular. Dale adds the musically mechanical, almost shrill sound of the hurdy-gurdy to their recordings. The concertina shows up occasionally, although it was almost never used aboard ship. And the duo's tracks are laced with arrangements influenced by Pint's early love for 1960s-era rock 'n' roll bands such as The Kinks and The Who. In fact, the phrase "rock and roll" appears in many of these 19th-century songs."

 

None of this really relates to the topic of this thread, of course, so I'll think I stop here. I see no problem with using a concertina to accompany forebitters and suchlike, so Shantyman, go to it!

 

Chris

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...for some reason the Greaat Unwashed Public have a major link in their collective mind between concertinas and shellbacks
The major link in the public mind is the evidence - what more do we need?

Evidence for what, for believing that concertinas were widely used by sailors? I would want facts, and the fact is that they weren't. There seems to be a "major link in the public mind" that concertinas are accordions. That doesn't make it so. Many (most?) continental Europeans call the concertina "the clown instrument"; they don't know the "sailor connection"; and the Salvation Army connection belongs to an earlier generation. (In fact, even most of the local SA folks aren't aware of that connection. Their local music expert said he thought there was still a member in a distant city who knows about concertinas, though he doesn't actually play one.) And I'm carefully avoiding political examples of the "collective mind" believing things that just aren't true, though all parties can quote examples.

 

On the other hand, one might consider the public perception an excellent excuse for using concertina with "shanties", if one's purpose is entertainment, rather than scholarship. Especially here in Denmark, where it seems people would rather die than sing on a chorus. :( Americans and Brits have been spoiled by audiences that like to sing along, and the effect is quite different if the shantyman sings unaccompanied and alone on the chorus parts as well as the verses, with no audience participation. That's when some sort of accompaniment -- chords, countermelody, etc. -- can significantly add to the enjoyment, if not the authenticity, of singing shanties for an audience.

 

There never was any "official" instrument, but why on earth wouldn't the concertina be the sailor's first choice as an instrument.

Like you, I can only speculate as to reasons, but the fact is that it wasn't. The available evidence -- ships' logs, sailors' journals, and the occasional photo and even rarer film -- indicates more fiddles than anything else, a fair number of flutes (especially in earlier years) and whistles, then the odd banjo, guitar, button accordion, or even trumpet, with concertinas being almost unheard of.

 

...we look after our classic instruments as if they were fragile, but they are not.
Oh yes, they are! Which is not to say that other instruments are not fragile, but they are easier to restore to playable (not necessarily optimal) condition with crude tools. (Also, the concertina's shape makes it much more likely to roll off a bunk or table and crash to the floor as the ship rolls with the waves.)
I think that the convenience of the concertina would outweigh the cost factor.
The convenience of the concertina lasts until it needs repair. The concertina is eminently repairable in the shop of a skilled craftsman, but most of the necessary tools and materials are/were not available on a sailing ship. You could always glue a piece of wood into broken fretwork -- or similarly repair a damaged fiddle or flute, -- and maybe even patch a bellows, but levers, pads, springs, buttons, or reeds? And even for a German concertina, the precision required is greater than that found in most sailors' carvings, so even with adequate materials, the labor required could still be considerable. (Similar considerations could also account for the relative paucity of brass instruments or woodwinds with complex key arrangements.)

 

I think concertinas might have been reasonable on ships shuttling between England and continental Europe, and maybe that's how German concertinas first came to England. But on the big, square-rigged, long-haul ships -- which I think have been the main focus of research into shanties and other music, -- they would have been less practical.

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Don't forget that "Yankee Jack" , John Short, of Watchet, Somerset, who was Cecil Sharpe's main contributer of Shanties, was a concertina player.

His instrument is in the care of Watchet museum but I have not had time to investigate what system. Also, whether he took it to sea with him is another matter!

 

Robin Madge

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Sorry if this is off-thread Chris, perhaps I misinterpreted your first post as implying that using the concertina for shanties is in some way "cashing in" on the ignorance of the public.

 

My position is that experts tell us that concertinas were not used by sailors (or very rarely). This, if true, would need some explanation, and none of the explanations I've heard hold water, so to speak. For example:

 

. Brass reads dont rust, and steel reeds seem to have been a later improvement (is this statement correct?)

 

. Concertinas may be more fragile than claw hammers, but it was just their robustness and lack of maintenance requirements that made them so popular in outback Australia during the same era (late 19th century). I must admit to having dropped a concertina (which survived). I also recieved a concer by Aust. Post (equivalent to a Cape Horn passage?) which had had a knock sufficient to dislodge two reeds. I was able to fix it using only a small screwdriver. (Also - sailors never leave anything on a table at sea after their first trip - my experience in leaving a dozen bottles of wine on a table certainly cured me of that habit).

 

. They were not really very expensive - at least compared to the violins that were recorded as having been used.

 

My radical suggestion is that perhaps the experts are wrong.

 

So - it is no point doing a "g" on this (I suppose you know what I mean). I would like instead to do some research of my own on the subject.

 

This will be easier if I have a starting reference, so can anyone help me with that?

 

Most of the texts I've seen are conspicuous in not dealing at all with what the sailors did in their spare time, and those that do don't have a lot to say about shanties and forebitters.

 

Since I am very busy with other unrelated research at the moment, I can't guarantee any results in the near future, but any help would be appreciated.

 

Thanks Rod

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My position is that experts tell us that concertinas were not used by sailors (or very rarely). This, if true, would need some explanation, and none of the explanations I've heard hold water, so to speak.

Rod, you seem to think that people failing to do something that makes sense "needs" explanation. The simplest explanation is that people are involved. But a bit more detail:

.. 1) People are rarely unanimous as to what makes sense. Just about any political issue or election provides an example of that. (Likewise, "G and me"? ;))

.. 2) People often do something other than what makes sense, even to themselves. E.g., getting dead drunk and losing all one's pay, which we may hope occurred to actual sailors in smaller proportion than the songs about it.

.. 3) When a person tries to make "sense" of things, it's rarely possible to recognize all controlling factors. This means not only that you, Rod, may not recognize certain factors which affected sailors' decisions, but also that they may not have taken into account factors that you consider obvious.

.. 4) Social factors are always important, including peer pressure and the potentially contradictory forces of tradition and fad.

 

Addressing some of your details:

.Brass reeds dont rust,...
Brass will corrode. Under what conditions? While less susceptible than steel to corrosion by pure water (i.e., humid conditions), what happens when salt is added? I don't know. Is reed brass less susceptible to corrosion than the brass used in reed frames? I've seen plenty of corrosion on brass reed frames which enclosed steel reeds.
...and steel reeds seem to have been a later improvement...
How much later is "later"? 1860? Earlier? Later? Maybe one of the others can remind us when steel reeds came into common use.

 

But there's another brass factor. Brass reeds are considered to be generally "quieter" than steel, or not capable of being pushed to as high a volume. Would sailors have considered this desirable? For that matter, did the accordions used by sailors generally have brass reeds, or steel? I don't know that anyone has researched that question. Maybe you can include that in your own research?

 

. Concertinas may be more fragile than claw hammers, but it was just their robustness and lack of maintenance requirements that made them so popular in outback Australia during the same era (late 19th century).

Now you've piqued my interest. I was unaware of this popularity; I'd love to hear more about it. How popular were they? How many concertinas, in contrast to how many fiddles, flutes, or accordions? How common were concertinas among the drovers and shearers? How common among those with fixed addresses?

 

But back to robustness:

I must admit to having dropped a concertina (which survived).

One of mine dropped with the bellows half open. The bellows exploded, splitting in half a dozen places. Also, the pad board and reed pan of the one end both cracked. I was able to make repairs, but I'm not sure how successful I would have been using the tools and materials available on a square rigger. And if a reed had broken, I doubt the captain would have been willing to sacrifice the spring in his chronometer to make a new one. B) (Of course, the same argument would apply to an accordion, except that some bass reeds would be bigger than the chronometer spring.)

 

I also recieved a concer by Aust. Post (equivalent to a Cape Horn passage?) which had had a knock sufficient to dislodge two reeds.

If you mean being tossed about, then no, not equivalent to a Cape Horn passage. The shocks delivered by the tossing of postal workers are likely to be very different from those generated by the tossing of a ship. Besides, the reeds could already have been loose, for any number of reasons. I have reeds that need to be re-seated when the humidity changes.

 

I was able to fix it using only a small screwdriver.

I would expect small screwdrivers to be rare on a ship, and my rigging knife simply isn't delicate enough. But it should be easy enough to make one -- by flattening the end of a nail, -- so that shouldn't really be a hindrance... after the first time.

 

. They were not really very expensive - at least compared to the violins that were recorded as having been used.

I suggest that you also try to include prices of used instruments in your comparison. Unfortunately, I expect that to be much more difficult.

 

My radical suggestion is that perhaps the experts are wrong.

Though I have my doubts, there is that possibility. And if you can find evidence of significant shipboard use of concertinas, I'll be one of your admiring supporters. In fact, if you can find even one or two examples, I hope you'll tell the stories here.

 

This will be easier if I have a starting reference, so can anyone help me with that?

I'm not sure what you mean by "a starting reference", but here are a few suggestions:

... I don't recall anything about accompanying instruments in the books by Hugill, Doerflinger, and others, but maybe personal contact with those who knew them -- e.g., Stan Hugill's son, or the shanty group Stormalong John, who recorded with him and one of whose members plays Maccann duet -- would turn up some anecdotes. And those who published "comprehensive" books aren't the only ones who collected information. Cecil Sharp has already been mentioned, and Peter Kennedy has a substantial collection of recordings (or has he now donated them to a museum?). But you should check also with maritime museums (Mystic Seaport in the US has a fine collection of documents) and even seamen's unions to see if they have personal journals of actual sailors. "Personal recollections" in newspapers and magazines of the period may or may not be reliable. Has anyone collected letters home -- to wives or sweethearts, parents or siblings -- from sailors? If not, may be too late to find any, which would be a pity. Whether they would mention the instruments played, I don't know, but I do know that a major part of the history of America's Civil War has been culled from just such letters written by soldiers, politicians, and even draft dodgers, details not found in any other source.

 

P.S. A couple of additional thoughts have occurred to me as to why concertina might not have been as popular as its fans think it should have been:

... Fiddles, banjos, and even flutes could be easily tuned. One concertina might be fine, with everyone else tuning to it, but if two concertinas were out of tune with each other, nothing much could be done about that. The same, of course, could be said of accordions.

... But concertinas were seemingly even rarer than accordions. Why should that be? Well, accordions commonly had multiple stops, i.e., multiple sets of reeds. If one reed broke on a concertina, that note would be missing. But if one reed broke on an accordion, that note could still be played, albeit with a different quality. If there's anything to this argument, then one might expect double-reeded concertinas to have been more common than single-reeded ones. Unfortunately, I doubt that there's now any way to verify this one way or the other.

 

Anyway, Rod, my arguments above -- like your own -- are mainly speculation. It's not my intention to discourage you from trying to research your hypothesis. On the contrary, I hope you'll take up the challenge and report to us -- and the world -- whatever you discover.

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This will be easier if I have a starting reference, so can anyone help me with that?

Rod, the books on which the movie Master and Commander is based apparently have lots of descriptions of everyday shipboard life. My father-in-law, a recently retired naval officer and military history buff, tells me they're considered quite accurate. You might try those, or figure out where the author did his research (which might be mentioned in some of the books' acknowledgements or on the author's website). Sorry, but I don't remember the author's name or the titles of the books, but that information should be readily available at your local bookstore's information desk if not from someone here.

 

Sounds like some interesting research -- have fun and good luck!

 

:)

Steven

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I started out on a japanies concertina, it was very bad. I played a stagi 20b for 1 & 1/2 years and it served me well untill I got my Herrington 30b. The stagi is good to learn on untill you are sure that playing a concertina is your thing. As with most things the more you can aford to spend for a quility instument the better they get. I've been able to play a dipper and a jefferies and they are to die for in responce and tone, but way out of my money leage. My Herrington is a good Mid range concertina, it's loud if I want it to be and soft if needed and faster than i can play it. I play for large gatherings quite often (1,000/ 2,000 people) and it sings out very well for me and my moods. Have fun learning. DCA

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The O' Brien books were set in a period before the invention of the concertina and on naval vessels where shanty singing was not permitted.

 

As soon as I have some time, I'll dig out some other references by Bob Webb and Stuart Frank on this subject -- Tom

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