wannaplayjazz Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Hi everyone! I’ve decided I’d like to buy an English concertina and I’d like some advice please as I really know next to nothing about them. I started out with a modest budget of about €1,000 or £850 and discovered I could get a vintage 48-button Lachenal with rosewood ends, 5-fold bellows, and steel reeds for that money. One I saw had the bone buttons replaced with steel and I’m curious about that – I believe they’re preferable to players but does it de-value the instrument in any way to have original features replaced? And what is the going rate for a fully-restored Lachenal compared to one pretty much in its original condition? I'm wondering whether to get one with the work done or to buy one that needs work and have it done? Also, I did something I really shouldn’t have ... I tried out a really beautiful Wheatstone that is way outside my budget!!! I think it was a 56-button Aeola from the 1930s (I knew I couldn’t buy it, so didn’t pay too much attention to those details, sorry!). But as an absolute beginner, even I could appreciate the difference in quality between the two instruments. Things I noticed were the much quicker response time between pushing the button/bellows and hearing the sound, the quality and clarity of the tone, the volume, the efficiency of the bellows (it had 6 folds compared to the 5 on the much cheaper Lachenel I tried but I don’t know if that’s the reason?) and the ease with which I seemed to be able to find my way through a scale because of the size and shape of the buttons. It also had extra buttons, but I don’t need the extra range myself. I know I can’t afford that particular Wheatstone or anything of that quality, but I definitely preferred the quicker response and the button size and shape. So, I’m considering increasing my budget now and my question is: what would be the minimum I would have to spend so that I could expect those qualities (quicker response and broader buttons) in an instrument? And what specifically would you recommend in that new price range, as in, is there some sort of middle ground between these two options I’ve already seen? Or is it an all-or-nothing kind of thing with these instruments? Apologies if I’m not using the right terms etc. I hope you can understand from my layman’s viewpoint what I’m trying to ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannaplayjazz Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 Thinking again, I'm wondering if the differences between the two concertinas are more specific to individual instruments or generally found in those makes/models? Is it possible that the qualities of one instrument might not necessarily be found in another example of the same type? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Stout Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 When you are talking about vintage concertinas the variation between individuals may be more significant than that between models. That said, there is a big difference between a 1920's-30's Aeola and a more workaday Lachenal (a difference which will be reflected in price). I think you'll have an advantage I didn't have early on--you might be able to try several instruments before buying one. My first vintage concertina is a Wheatstone tutor from 1851 with brass reeds-- it has a lovely soft sweet voice and I still play it often at home. My second vintage Wheatstone is a model 21 from 1917. It is very loud and is the instrument I mostly play for dancers. I'm very fond of it too. Some years later I splurged and got a tenor-treble Aeola. I got lucky---I bought all three of these having not seen or played them. Figure that there may be some restoration cost in addition to the acquisition cost. Part of my tale here is to watch out for concertina acquisition syndrome but part of it is also that different instruments have different individual strengths. Find one that you like and enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I started out with a modest budget of about €1,000 or £850 and discovered I could get a vintage 48-button Lachenal with rosewood ends, 5-fold bellows, and steel reeds for that money. One I saw had the bone buttons replaced with steel and I’m curious about that – I believe they’re preferable to players but does it de-value the instrument in any way to have original features replaced? I can do this bit anyway. The old makers had various models in their ranges, depending on how finely finished they were and you quickly learn a few obvious spots that hint at quality. Rosewood ends is better than mahogany. Metal is perhaps even better again although it changes the tone markedly so would be part customer choice, ebony seems to have been kept for the fancier ones even though it isn't real ebony! But a decent squeezebox got decent ends. Amboyna and tortoiseshell were saved for the special order fancy jobs and look spectacular but are not usually for mere mortals. We should be so lucky eh? A 'power bulge' in the ends ('raised ends') is quality, and they're usually pretty good actually. An odd number of sizes, 8 or 12, is even better; they're top of the range, aeolas and edeophones. Metal buttons is quality, but even more so is the felt bushing that comes with them. Bone buttons is usually not, although you do see the odd quality instrument that has what everyone says are bone buttons. ("They never used ivory for concertinas!") but I still think might be ivory. Anyway 'bushed' is better. Unbushed bone is bottom of the range. You'll see glass and gold plated occasionally. Comments as for amboyna above... So: Taking this all together: Fitting metal keys instead of bone is good but won't improve the reeds. If it was a bottom of the range instrument as the bone keys might hint it still won't be too flash. Probably still perfectly playable I should probably say though. Just not as finely poised, if you understand me. So 'non original but improved' is good. 'Non original but mangled' is not. Concertinas are valued, by and large, as instruments not collectibles, thankfully. All these instruments have had a century or so to be well or badly treated in and how they have aged will have a lot to do with how they play now. Don't ASSUME that because it is a top model instrument it will still play as Mr Lchenel or Prof. Wheatstone hoped. It's not a dreadful minefield, honestly, but go a little warily just as you would buying anything second hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenTx Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 [quote name='Dirge' A 'power bulge' in the ends ('raised ends') is quality, and they're usually pretty good actually. An odd number of sizes, 8 or 12, is even better; they're top of the range, aeolas and edeophones. Hi Dirge, Could you explain what you mean by "An odd number of sizes, 8 to 12, is even better, they're top of the range, aeolas and edeophones". I have a raised metal ended edeophone Serial 48055...how do I determine the model number? Thank you, Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Hi Dirge, Could you explain what you mean by "An odd number of sizes, 8 to 12, is even better, they're top of the range, aeolas and edeophones". I have a raised metal ended edeophone Serial 48055...how do I determine the model number? Thank you, Stephen Sorry, not being very clear there. 'Odd' as in not 6. Not odd as in odd. 8 sides aeola, 12 sides edeophone. I think these 2 are just edeophones or aeolas, top of the range, and don't get numbers but I wouldn't put any money on that! There are various catalogues on line and people refer to them; I've never done this but I think they might be with the Horniman ledgers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Drinkwater Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I have a raised metal ended edeophone Serial 48055...how do I determine the model number? Thank you, Stephen Hi Stephen, you might want to check this link out to a 1905 Lachenal concertina catalogue which features the Edeophone as their top model. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannaplayjazz Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 Part of my tale here is to watch out for concertina acquisition syndrome ... LOL I'm having such trouble figuring all this out, I can't see CAS being a problem for me ... yet! But I bet I could get used to it, given time! Thank you for all the advice. I'm starting to get a picture of what's involved. So I'm going to increase my budget - see, it's starting already!!! So, what the money goes on is the mechanism between the buttons and the pads, the reeds and the housing for all that? And everything else - buttons, bellows, pads & valves - is fixable/replaceable ... is that correct? By the way, if anyone knows of a nice English for sale, maybe an entry-level Wheatstone, you know where to find me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hersh Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 So, what the money goes on is the mechanism between the buttons and the pads, the reeds and the housing for all that? And everything else - buttons, bellows, pads & valves - is fixable/replaceable ... is that correct? Yes, roughly correct as far as it goes. Pads and valves are routinely replaced, and bellows are replaced often (though not cheaply). You didn't mention springs, but they're often replaced too. Buttons are not often replaced, though they can be - as Dirge said, buttons are a rough indicator of the quality of the rest of the instrument, because metal-button concertinas tended to be higher-end models than bone. Action ("mechanism") can be replaced, but it isn't done often - it's occasionally done on an exceptionally good Lachenal because the Lachenal non-riveted action is considered a weak point in the Lachenal design. Reed pans (and concertina ends for the matter) can be replaced, but that tends to be done only when the originals have been damaged beyond repair. Reeds can be replaced too, and they are when they've been tuned so many times that they no longer work well - but it's generally best to have as many original reeds as possible, especially on an instrument that started out with very good reeds. But all that having been said, it's best for a player (perhaps as opposed to a skilled restorer) to look at an instrument as a whole rather than its parts. You're safest looking at concertinas that have already been restored so you can play them before making a decision and know what you'll be getting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannaplayjazz Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) Thanks Daniel - that's very helpful indeed. Ideally I would be able to try an instrument before I buy it but the Anglo is so much more popular in Ireland and I'm looking for an English, so the selection of instruments available is really tiny and I may have to buy sight-unseen from the UK. So any information I can glean is useful when deciding which ones to consider. Norma. Edited January 16, 2012 by wannaplayjazz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) Norma, doubling your budget should get you a reasonable instrument. Buying a good instrument is an investment because after several ,or many ,years of playing it is usually possible to sell on at a profit or at least no loss. When Daniel (post 9) says 'replaced often' one could read into that that certain items wear out quickly.... I think what he means is that when you find a 'restored' Concertina it could have had many replacement parts. I sold a Wheatstone English last year to Fernando (a member here) who lives( or lived) in Galway and it had all its original parts, even springs,pads and valves, from 1925. I bought it from Stephen Chambers.. then I played it for ten years almost every day and it still looked and played almost like NEW ! If I were you I would be looking for a Wooden ended Wheatstone 48 key Treble that was made after 1900. You are more certain to find an easily playable instrument with a GOOD keyboard which, for me, is a very important part. Edited January 16, 2012 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hersh Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Buying a good instrument is an investment because after several ,or many ,years of playing it is usually possible to sell on at a profit or at least no loss. I wouldn't count on this - prices have gone up, but that doesn't mean they'll go up indefinitely. When Daniel (post 9) says 'replaced often' one could read into that that certain items wear out quickly.... I think what he means is that when you find a 'restored' Concertina it could have had many replacement parts. Yes, that's basically what I meant. Most vintage concertinas need to have their pads and valves (and often springs) replaced at some point, but once they're replaced, they usually last a while. I sold a Wheatstone English last year to Fernando (a member here) who lives( or lived) in Galway and it had all its original parts, even springs,pads and valves, from 1925. I bought it from Stephen Chambers.. then I played it for ten years almost every day and it still looked and played almost like NEW ! You might check with Stephen yourself, since he's based in Ireland now. Like Geoff, I had a good experience buying a concertina from him, many years ago. If I were you I would be looking for a Wooden ended Wheatstone 48 key Treble that was made after 1900.I don't play English myself, but this sounds like reasonable advice to me. If Stephen doesn't have one available, remember that Chris Algar sells instruments on a week's approval so you can buy one sight unseen without making a set-in-stone commitment. You might also consider a rosewood-ended or metal-ended Lachenal if a good Wheatstone is out of your price range. Some of them play quite well. As with a Wheatstone, you're more likely to have good luck with a post-1900 one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannaplayjazz Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Thanks again. Yes, I think a 48-button rosewood-ended Wheatstone would suit me nicely. I've made some enquiries based on your suggestions so fingers crossed I'll get my hands on one soon. I'm so keen to just start playing now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wannaplayjazz Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Well, my beeeautiful 48-button rosewood-ended Wheatstone English purchased from Chris Algar arrived last Thursday and I LOVE it! Such a lovely sound and I'm starting to get the hang of a few tunes on it now. I'm so happy to own my very own concertina after spending my entire life wishing for one - I just can't understand now why I waited so long! And many thanks again to everyone who gave me advice - I have absolutely no regrets about my purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin toner Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) Mellower tone than a metal ended version; extremely lightweight; fast response probably too as I seem to remember from last sampling one recently. Very glad your pleased. I'm sure you'll do it justice as you've already begun to understand the layout, which is a good sign! Kevin Edited February 8, 2012 by kevin toner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglo-Irishman Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Part of my tale here is to watch out for concertina acquisition syndrome ... LOL I'm having such trouble figuring all this out, I can't see CAS being a problem for me ... yet! But I bet I could get used to it, given time! Buying your first concertina is not a symptom of CAS. It's the cause of it! Your first concertina will be a wonderful experience, and you'll soon get familiar with it, and progress from just poking around on it to actually playing it. But then, sooner or later, you'll find something sub-optimal about it. Maybe it's too loud, and annoys the neighbours when you practise. Or it's too quiet, and you can't hear it when you're playing with others. Or you realise that its tone is not as nice as some you've heard, and feel that you need a better one. Or you have a beautiful, mellifluous, valuable anitque, and don't want to subject it to the risks of campfire sing-songs and pub sessions - so you need a cheap one, too! These are symptoms of CAS! The defining syndrome is that you don't want to just change concertinas - you want to keep the old one for certain purposes. Don't try to fight it - let your bank statement do that! As I said, wanting to buy a first concertina is perfectly harmless. Just watch out from then on ... Cheers, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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