new english Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Hi Guys and girls having thought a little about the original question and as I am new to concertinas I fell into the inevitable trap of associating the instrument with its most common musical genre and have felt almost apologetic in my responses LOL The question really is the one I asked myself “can I play jazz on a concertina “ The instrument is only limited by ones imagination knowledge and technique I have been playing around with several Django Reinhardt chord patterns and Solos and a little Bach and it’s clear that the only limitation is not in the instrument but in my Ability to play it I have been haunted for over 30 years by the first time heard blind blakes Ragtine guitar version of west coast blues the stumbling thumb syncopating the double down strokes is still considered innovative and I still don’t know anyone that can play it with that effortless bounce or without using a capo LOL Just a few thinking outside the box no pun intended LOL Blind blakewest coast blues http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLk7Xw0mpnM ROY SMECK on the humble ukulele Takashi Nakamura Jazz ukulele Solo ALL OF ME buddy greene !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! awesome and the wonderful jerry douglas dobro this is just a great tune to jam over with my duet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXQCSuazO6Q&feature=related and finally Andy Leftwich with my absolute all-time favorite version of minor swing with just a hint of bluegrass http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKtShVBPJyg To me dixieland ,gypsy jazz is only separated by the choice of instrument The voicing’s used violin /guitar or clarinet /trumpet but playing the same scales and counter melodies I would also add western swing to the melting pot as in a lot of bob wills songs have a distinctly jazzy flavor Tony Ps But if we’re talking modern jazz and just to be contentious LOL I was unfortunately taken by a jazz guitar friend to a “shall we say” evening of free form modern jazz If you acquired all the concertinas ever made in all the various states of tuning and gave them to musically inept orangutans the subsequent cacophony would be more melodic LOL
wannaplayjazz Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Ooh! GREAT clips. Minor Swing is one of my all-time favourite tunes to (balboa) dance to - can't wait to learn it on a concertina!
Jody Kruskal Posted January 14, 2012 Posted January 14, 2012 Wow Tony. What a fine collection of performances. I really enjoyed viewing each one, thanks for the links. As you try to imagine how concertina might fit into this wide net of "Jazz" music you are defining, you could listen to what I've been up to on the Anglo. For instance... "Sing To Me, Concertina Boy" 10. Boulevard of Broken Dreams 13. Kiszka Frailach 14. My Waikiki Girl 8. Mazel 4. Princess Poo-Poo-Ly also, Killing Me Softly (with Kung Fu) http://jodykruskal.com/tune_of_the_month/july_2009.html Walk On Boy http://jodykruskal.com/tune_of_the_month/september_2008.html Tuba City Truck Stop and Wacky Wendy http://jodykruskal.com/tune_of_the_month/june_2007.html Fickle Moon: concertina and guitar http://jodykruskal.com/tune_of_the_month/november_2006.html None of my examples are jazz, the way I use the word, but they do IMO move the concertina in that direction. I hope you find this listening helpful.
Kautilya Posted January 15, 2012 Posted January 15, 2012 Fickle Moon: concertina and guitar http://jodykruskal.com/tune_of_the_month/november_2006.html Captivating - there are film soundtracks resonating out of this from Russia, France, Italy... May be a bit out of fashion for some but theme music for Ingrid B., Audrey Hepburn, Jean-Louis Trintignant.....
ceemonster Posted January 15, 2012 Posted January 15, 2012 [i have been haunted for over 30 years by the first time heard blind blake's Ragtine guitar]....love your taste, my friend, love your taste....this is one of my top three favorite guitar players of any era, though rev. gary davis, blind boy fuller, and big bill broonzy are on the longer list....and their descendants---chet atkins, doc watson, and jerry reed---also have swing that will also have you jumping out of your skin... look, what you are after is all in the syncopation. just bear in mind, that syncopation (aka, "swing,") is like a spectrum with infinate possible gradations. and it has component parts, much like "layers" in Photoshop. you educate your ear by listening/watching for these components and musing over them. this applies whether it's Memphis Minnie, the Tulla Ceili Band or Gus Viseur and Jo Privat burning up "Minor Swing" (see youtube for their briliant CBA duo on this number), or David Grisman and Jerry Garcia doing "Russian Lullaby"... these "layers" include but are not limited to: 1. note length: some are held longer, some are sped up. it doesn't take "seven years of listening" to get it into ya. it takes, oh, fifteen to thirty... 2. note pressure (aka so-called "agogic" syncopation): which notes do you press harder/louder to give "oomph," and which to de-emphasize, and when in a given genre, is this done? (it is almost a universal newbie mistake to try to get swing by doing this, when the answer is often really a note-length jigger. note pressure is much less of a factor in swing, particularly irish swing, than note length and numbers 3. and 4. below...)..... 3. the staccato-legato dichotomy, and within that, your degree of stacatto when you are being staccato--snappy "staccatissimo" (rare in irish music)? or merely "regular" staccato as in, putting space between the notes? 4. articulation/phrasing (where you break a line of notes or lift off a note at the end of a phrase, or even in a run of notes within a phrase--this one is related to, but distinct from, number 3. 5. relative position of tune notes in a melody line in and of itself can produce or contribute to swing or a lilt independently of the foregoing "layers." an example would be, say, the ragtime number "Nola." or the irish tune, "Gravel Walks." the old jazz guys had a turn of phrase they used as a compliment when saying that a player had "big ears." the ability to discern and empathize with "layers" like those listed here is much of what they were talking about.... you can do this on concertina if that is the instrument you wish to do it on....just don't forget your thirty years of listening....
Steve Mansfield Posted January 15, 2012 Posted January 15, 2012 Great detailed post by ceemonster. Personally I'd suggest that anyone who seriously wants to play ITM, or central French, or southern English, or Scandinavian, or any other genre, needs to listen to and think about the same factors in the same way ...
new english Posted January 16, 2012 Author Posted January 16, 2012 Hi ceemonster thanks for the description what concertina do you play? I have found applying the rhythmic and melodic nuances from the guitar quite interesting ,Sidney Bechets Viper mad was a favourite of another member of the forum and transferring the guitar arrangement to the concertina has been great fun Syncopation ,articulation are really not issues for me as I started life as a drummer with a dance band at 17 and was perfectly happy playing jazz guitar as a side hobby until the dreaded 80s when drum machines /sequencers brought electronic evil into our lives LOL tony
ceemonster Posted January 17, 2012 Posted January 17, 2012 [what concertina do you play?] i spent five or so years obsessed with anglo for irish music, but don't find it optimal for other genres. i used to do some gigging on PA (paris musette, tango, a little klezmer) before being consumed with Irish, and the last couple of years have been rekindling the love for musette, tango, etc, but this time around on CBA (also finding it surprisingly lovely for irish music). the CBA adventure has led to serious interest in unisonoric conccertina. in 2011 i spent three or four months with a cheap 48-button EC and loved it, thought it was fantastic for single-melody stuff (yes, i know, gobs of folks on this site see EC as chordal, but i loved its melodic facility). currently dithering as to whether to aim for a "real" EC or one of the duets--the duet's left-hand bass-vamping capability might be very nice for musette or tango, but the melodic fluidity of EC is really great, so the jury's still out.......
new english Posted January 17, 2012 Author Posted January 17, 2012 Hi ceemonster I was fortunate enough to play with a chap that had two rather swanky concertinas I have subsequently found out one was a wheatstone lots of buttons (cant remember how many)English and the other a 46 Wheatstone McCann duet although the concertina is not his favored instrument (you wouldn’t believe it when he plays LOL) on the English he played some rather nice classical arrangements but on the duet a loose interpretation of the piano arrangement of jelly roll morton kansas city stomp a sort of trad jazz /ragtime with a mixture of walking bass and chord fragments on the left and some quite beautiful melody lines on the right with occasional union accents with passing chords, I was Hooked LOL I have looked at various concertina clips and arrangements on this site and the net and although many are played quite beautifully on english and Anglo concertinas they in my humble opinion do not produce the flavor of what I actually want to play Example Listening to his playing on the duet it is capable of all three ingredients, bass chord melody that is perfect for the kind of tunes I want to play I’m sure the duet has lots of limitations the other don’t, but reels Morris dancing and Irish tunes are as we said in the 70s not really my bag LOL but having said that Dirges beautiful rendition of Londonderry Air has got me wavering a bit Tony
moonsagotunes Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) Bet you'd all like this that I just found: Speakeasy's I remembered being so impressed by Geoff Lakeman's concertina playing, at one of the past Squeeze-Ins I attended, so I did a search and came up with this. It was so long ago and I can't remember exactly what he played... it was more bluesy than this, though I think this is him on the concertina at myspace (sorry, Geoff, if I am wrong....). Anyway, whoever this is, it's interesting.* And, on that note... my husband just walked in the door with a little squeezebox thing he bought at an auction. Not sure it's playable but it certainly has been played... he says everyone laughed when he bought it (for $10.). It's rather sad-sounding, but it's cute. I suppose the scrap metal on it will bring more than $10. (Ha ha... won't do that. I'll keep it intact!) edit added... The squeezebox is diatonic and seems like an antique (Victorian) melodion. Funny how the beautiful paper bellows survived, but the rest of the box is rather beat up! *edit added... Here's a more recent like re Geoff Lakeman Edited January 18, 2012 by bellowbelle
ceemonster Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 ah, if you like Ton Van Bergeyk, you must like, or should also try, lasse johansson....he did a now out-of-print ragtime guitar LP of jelly roll morton music called "king porter stomp," but there are other wonderful ragtime guitar recordings by him that are in print. i listen to this one a lot... http://www.amazon.com/Fingerstyle-Guitar-Classics-Lasse-Johansson/dp/B000FCLWLO another favorite is craig ventresco of san francisco. i got onto him through the soundtrack CD of the terry zwigoff documentary about the artist R Crumb (who loves and plays the stuff we're rhapsodizing about right now)...the film and the CD are titled "Crumb," full of wonderful oldtime jazz: http://www.amazon.com/Crumb-Terry-Zwigoff-Original-Soundtrack/dp/B00415BTF0/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1326854403&sr=1-1 "crumb" features cuts by craig ventresco, whose solo CD i then had to hunt down, and is another one i play a lot....there are also numerous delicous youtube clips of ventresco.... http://www.amazon.com/Past-Yet-Come-Craig-Ventresco/dp/B00005BHW0/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1326854463&sr=1-1
ceemonster Posted January 18, 2012 Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) the thing about trying to get close to the ragtime guitar sound (as opposed to the sound of clarinet, sax, fiddle) on concertina is, ragtime guitar has the alternating bass, which was developed in imitation of continuous piano bass. its percussive rhythmic role is probly much more important than its chordal-harmonic role....i think of EC as more analagous to swing violin or the oldtime jazz horns--clarinet, sax, etc. it can certainly give chordal color in spots along with a melody, but not sure it is the optimal choice for continuous rhythmic bass vamping analogous to guitar or piano. i guess that is what you were saying as well.... though, i not long ago heard single-note continuous-bass piano vamping, and wondered if that was perhaps more achievable on EC than full chordal bass vamping....funnily enough, where i heard this was on recordings by the band "simple gifts," which features EC concertina player rachel hall on both EC and piano (different tracks). when rachel hall played oldtime swingy/jazzy piano, her vamping was often single or light double notes, not full chords. i really liked it, backgrounded the band better. and it did come to mind that one might be able to try this on a tenor EC. however, her EC cuts did not feature continuous bass vamping, single-note or otherwise, just gorgeous melody lines like a clarinet or fiddle would with a chord or double stop here and there. the two records from their lineup which feature hall are really nice additions to a concertina collection, listenable below... http://www.amazon.com/Other-Places-Times-Simple-Gifts/dp/B00005OSWZ/ref=sr_1_15?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1326855842&sr=1-15 http://www.amazon.com/Time-Again-Simple-Gifts/dp/B00005OSWY/ref=ntt_mus_ep_dpi_2 Edited January 18, 2012 by ceemonster
Jody Kruskal Posted January 19, 2012 Posted January 19, 2012 Bet you'd all like this that I just found: Speakeasy's I remembered being so impressed by Geoff Lakeman's concertina playing, at one of the past Squeeze-Ins I attended, so I did a search and came up with this. It was so long ago and I can't remember exactly what he played... it was more bluesy than this, though I think this is him on the concertina at myspace (sorry, Geoff, if I am wrong....). Anyway, whoever this is, it's interesting.* And, on that note... my husband just walked in the door with a little squeezebox thing he bought at an auction. Not sure it's playable but it certainly has been played... he says everyone laughed when he bought it (for $10.). It's rather sad-sounding, but it's cute. I suppose the scrap metal on it will bring more than $10. (Ha ha... won't do that. I'll keep it intact!) edit added... The squeezebox is diatonic and seems like an antique (Victorian) melodion. Funny how the beautiful paper bellows survived, but the rest of the box is rather beat up! *edit added... Here's a more recent like re Geoff Lakeman Thank you Belle for directing me to Geoff Lakeman. I've been listening to his various selections and I'm quite impressed by the American style duet concertina he is achieving. I applaud his efforts and wish him the best with Unstrung Heroes and Speakeasy. It sounds like what he is trying to do (and also what I'm after with my own playing on the Anglo) is first off, to put the concertina in the right company, fiddle, guitar, banjo. Secondly to pick the right tunes and thirdly to get that American sound on the concertina... a rather rare affair in American traditional music and perhaps even more obscure in the UK. Bravo Geoff.
Anglo-Irishman Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 I have looked at various concertina clips and arrangements on this site and the net and although many are played quite beautifully on english and Anglo concertinas they in my humble opinion do not produce the flavor of what I actually want to play Example Listening to his playing on the duet it is capable of all three ingredients, bass chord melody that is perfect for the kind of tunes I want to play Tony, I enjoyed both the guitar and piano clips you linked to. They brought home to me an important difference between the concertina and these two instruments. You play the concertina with your fingers - you play the guitar and piano with your fingers, hands, arms and torso! I play finger-style 5-string banjo, which involves a lot of playing "up the neck" and I know that the left-arm movement has a lot to do with the timing. The ragtime pianists also have a lot of left-arm movement, and the swing of the arm imparts swing to the music. They do a lot of intricate fingering with the right hand, but they structure the execution of the melody with hand movement as well. And both guitarists and pianists (more the classical fraternity) use their torsos as well - leaning into the instrument for emphasis, laying off for lightness. The problem with the concertina is that the arms are taken up solely with pumping the bellows and the hands are immobilised by the hand- or thumb-straps, so the fingers have to do all the work of selecting and timing the notes. And the distance from one button to the next is so short that there's no room left to accelarate or retard the arrival at the next note, like a pianist or guitarist does, and this can lead to a "plodding" effect. To make a concertina swing, you have to resort to some form of synchronisation that is not directly involved in producing the notes. Something like foot-tapping, silent humming, or nodding your head ... or perhaps transcendental meditation? As to the type of concertina you need - the clips show that ragtime pianists need to have their hands move independently - one in a solid rhythm, one more flexible and capable of rubato and syncopation. With the guitarists it's the solid right thumb and the flexible right-hand fingers that provide this. I just can't imagine doing this on an EC, where both hands are involved in playing the melody. Anglo, yes - but on the other hand, the typical diminished, augmented and suspended chords that occur in ragtime are just not there (or at least I haven't found many of them!). So to my mind, a Duet is the only type of system that would be feasible. I don't know the Maccann or Hayden Duets, but the Crane is certainly capable of those moccha harmonies, and allows you to vamp with the left hand and play around rhythmically with the right. Cheers, John
Jody Kruskal Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) As to the type of concertina you need - the clips show that ragtime pianists need to have their hands move independently - one in a solid rhythm, one more flexible and capable of rubato and syncopation. With the guitarists it's the solid right thumb and the flexible right-hand fingers that provide this. I just can't imagine doing this on an EC, where both hands are involved in playing the melody. Anglo, yes - but on the other hand, the typical diminished, augmented and suspended chords that occur in ragtime are just not there (or at least I haven't found many of them!). So to my mind, a Duet is the only type of system that would be feasible. I don't know the Maccann or Hayden Duets, but the Crane is certainly capable of those moccha harmonies, and allows you to vamp with the left hand and play around rhythmically with the right. Cheers, John A fine description of the advantages of the various systems in ragtime playing. Another consideration that you have not mentioned in your evaluation of which system would best be able to do this, is range. I play a 38 button G/D Anglo and that allows me enough alternate fingerings to get the chords I need against the melody notes I need for many fine early jazz tunes. Diminished, augmented and suspended chords are all there in the few keys I play in... but more importantly, I get a wide spacing of available pitches for variety in the voicing of the chords. Close triads become tedious. Pianos take advantage of their wide range to get a lively and sophisticated sound by voice leading and open up their accompaniment by using widely spaced voicings of the chords. The G/D Anglo to a lesser extent, has that wider range required for this. Large duets also have this capacity, but because they are large, they miss out on the agile articulation the smaller Anglos have. I think I am lucky that I stumbled on the G/D 38 Anglo early in my playing. Back then I really didn't have a clue as to how versatile this system would be or that I even had options. In hindsight I think I picked the right system to allow me to grow into more involved playing without loosing the rhythmic drive inherent in the small Anglos. Edited January 21, 2012 by Jody Kruskal
ceemonster Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 of course, one can play "ragtime" emulating piano and/or guitar, and one can equally play "ragtime" emulating sax, clarinet, violin. if it's the latter, EC will do brilliantly. if it's the former, all the above posts apply. but both approaches qualify fully as "playing ragtime." so....do you want bass vamping and/or counterpoint and/or multiple voices, or will single-line melody satisfy your soul? but...a thought about the considerations coming into play if one wants bass vamping or multiple voices. and that is, that in the many fascinating discussions we have here Re what one can do with various systems, there is often recurring between-the-lines desire or wish discernible at the subtext level. and that is, the desire that the concertina do what a bandoneon, piano or guitar will do, and a (hopeless because unrealistic) quest to find the system that will satisfy that. the fact is, that even the duets will not. well---the really big duets might, but you are then getting closer to bandoneon territory. the fact is that the concertina will not play either full ragtime treble or full ragtime bass, let alone both together, with the complexity and voicing of a piano or bandoneon. it will merely approximate it through simplified arrangements that may be charming, winsome, and delightful, but are greatly pared down compared to piano, bandoneon, or guitar. and i think that unconsciously, concertina folks do not wish to face this, and are often unconsciously trying to find "the one" that will do what they are dreaming of. sometimes their arrangements pursue that quest in a way that is out of whack with the strengths and weaknesses of the concertina---for example, big bass chords which choke the melody when skeletal bare-bones basswork would balance better because of the concertina's tendency toward balance issues even at the best of times. i feel it is important and liberating to accept and embrace the limitations. full-bore multivoice arranging is what bandoneon, piano, and PA or CBA are for. the ooncertina is for creating the essence of that music on a small scale in a tiny package that one can take on the space shuttle.....
Anglo-Irishman Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 of course, one can play "ragtime" emulating piano and/or guitar, and one can equally play "ragtime" emulating sax, clarinet, violin. if it's the latter, EC will do brilliantly. if it's the former, all the above posts apply. but both approaches qualify fully as "playing ragtime." so....do you want bass vamping and/or counterpoint and/or multiple voices, or will single-line melody satisfy your soul? ceemonster, I would beg to differ from your assumption that emulating sax, clarinet or violin is emulating ragtime! Ragtime is a piano genre that also works pretty well on the guitar. To get anywhere near the feel of it on other instruments, you need a band. Saxophone quartet, string quartet, jazz band. If you want to play ragtime on the EC like on the sax, you need at least four ECs. Ragtime is essentially polyphonic. With just a melody line, the syncopation, chord progressions and bass runs fall flat, and the charm is gone. ... there is often recurring between-the-lines desire or wish discernible at the subtext level. and that is, the desire that the concertina do what a bandoneon, piano or guitar will do, and a (hopeless because unrealistic) quest to find the system that will satisfy that. the fact is, that even the duets will not. well---the really big duets might, but you are then getting closer to bandoneon territory. It may be just by obtuseness, but I don't quite understand the grouping of Bandoneon with piano and guitar, as opposed to concertina. The Bandoneon is a concertina, albeit a German one. It's bisonoric, and the closest thing to it among the English-made concertinas is not the duet, but the 38-key anglo, like Jody has. I have both a Bandoneon and a Crane Duet, and I assure you that syncopation and suspended chords are much more amenable on the Duet, and in a wider choice of keys! Come to think of it, I've heard ragtime on various instruments and ensembles, but never on the Bandoneon. Have I missed something? Or do you mean by "Bandoneon" those hybrids that are more like "duet CBAs"? These merely resemble the Bandoneon in size and in the dry-octave tuning. The term "Bandoneon" was coined for a variant of the German diatonic Konzertina button layout developed by (or for) a certain Herr Band. You can do a lot more with it than with a 30-button Anglo, but quite frankly, it wouldn't be my first choice for ragtime after piano, guitar and 5-string banjo. Cheers, John
Rod Posted January 21, 2012 Posted January 21, 2012 of course, one can play "ragtime" emulating piano and/or guitar, and one can equally play "ragtime" emulating sax, clarinet, violin. if it's the latter, EC will do brilliantly. if it's the former, all the above posts apply. but both approaches qualify fully as "playing ragtime." so....do you want bass vamping and/or counterpoint and/or multiple voices, or will single-line melody satisfy your soul? ceemonster, I would beg to differ from your assumption that emulating sax, clarinet or violin is emulating ragtime! Ragtime is a piano genre that also works pretty well on the guitar. To get anywhere near the feel of it on other instruments, you need a band. Saxophone quartet, string quartet, jazz band. If you want to play ragtime on the EC like on the sax, you need at least four ECs. Ragtime is essentially polyphonic. With just a melody line, the syncopation, chord progressions and bass runs fall flat, and the charm is gone. ... there is often recurring between-the-lines desire or wish discernible at the subtext level. and that is, the desire that the concertina do what a bandoneon, piano or guitar will do, and a (hopeless because unrealistic) quest to find the system that will satisfy that. the fact is, that even the duets will not. well---the really big duets might, but you are then getting closer to bandoneon territory. It may be just by obtuseness, but I don't quite understand the grouping of Bandoneon with piano and guitar, as opposed to concertina. The Bandoneon is a concertina, albeit a German one. It's bisonoric, and the closest thing to it among the English-made concertinas is not the duet, but the 38-key anglo, like Jody has. I have both a Bandoneon and a Crane Duet, and I assure you that syncopation and suspended chords are much more amenable on the Duet, and in a wider choice of keys! Come to think of it, I've heard ragtime on various instruments and ensembles, but never on the Bandoneon. Have I missed something? Or do you mean by "Bandoneon" those hybrids that are more like "duet CBAs"? These merely resemble the Bandoneon in size and in the dry-octave tuning. The term "Bandoneon" was coined for a variant of the German diatonic Konzertina button layout developed by (or for) a certain Herr Band. You can do a lot more with it than with a 30-button Anglo, but quite frankly, it wouldn't be my first choice for ragtime after piano, guitar and 5-string banjo. Cheers, John If I understand correctly the original question was "Can I play Jazz on the Concertina ?" to which I reckon the basic answer should be that you should feel free to attempt to play any style of music of your choosing on the instrument. When it comes to a category of Jazz as specific as 'Ragtime' it is inevitable that music which was invariably composed specifically for the piano will require a certain amount of re-arrangement and adaptation to suit the solo Concertina, but this should be possible to achieve without necessarily destroying too much of the essential character of this delightful style of music. I have no end of fun applying this principle to my 36 button Anglo but shall of course always bow to the superiority of the best of all those brilliant Ragtime pianists for whom the music was originally intended.
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