Andy Holder Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Hi all. I have just collected a Concertina which I bought in Crow's auction last week. It was listed as a Wheatstone and it is certainly in a Wheatstone hard case. The Wheatstone label in the case has the address West Street so it is post 1905. The instrument looks like a later one and is in fairly good condition. It has a riveted action and either Beech or Sycamore reed pans. Round ended reed frames with steel reeds. The fretwork is Wheatstone - identical. However, the only serial number in the entire instrument is 27. The RH reedpan is stamped with R 27 and the LH reedpan is stamped with L 27. There is a number 20113 written in pencil. I've looked through the Horniman ledgers and instruments of this age should be up in the 20,000 range. Were there any exact Wheatstone copies made by others? Is it a Wheatstone??? Thanks for any help Andrew " data-controller="core.front.core.autosizeiframe" data-embedId='e72a9b03e38c9c239947182bdc2bc658' allowfullscreen=''> " data-controller="core.front.core.autosizeiframe" data-embedId='e65793b3a8c3b0c83a3952b583622440' allowfullscreen=''> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ash2020/sets/72157628310031069/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/ash2020/sets/72157628310031069/ Edited December 14, 2011 by Andy Holder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 The 27 is a batch number, used to keep all the parts of one instrument together during manufacturing. It is not unheard of to find Wheatstones with no serial number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Holder Posted December 15, 2011 Author Share Posted December 15, 2011 The 27 is a batch number, used to keep all the parts of one instrument together during manufacturing. It is not unheard of to find Wheatstones with no serial number. Thank you for that Theo. Do you think it's safe to sell it as a Wheatstone? Does the riveted action and fretwork mean that it definitely can't be a Lachenal? I would hate to sell it in good faith as a Wheatstone and then have someone come back in disappointment! Cheers Andrew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 (edited) Yes Andy, this is a Wheaststone; the rivetted action, the wooden Buttons with metal caps, the alignment of the screws in the finger plate, all point very strongly to it being a Wheatstone. The ledgers agree with your number 20113 showing it to be a 48key with polished Rosewood ends. December 13th 1882 making it almost exactly 129 years old... and very nice too. Geoff. Edited December 15, 2011 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Yes Andy, this is a Wheaststone; I'd agree with that. And going back to the original post, the action boards are most likely to be maple or sycamore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Holder Posted December 15, 2011 Author Share Posted December 15, 2011 Thanks again Theo and Geoff. I'm amazed if that is the date, judging from the condition, however, I can't see why else that number would be there. The hard case is post 1905 but I suppose it would have been possible to buy the case from Wheatstone at a later date, would it? Quite a relief to know that I haven't bought a pup. What is your ethical position on re-printing an oval label to fit in the end? Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 As the only place where the serial number would have been (Chris Algar often says "I cannot find a number anywhere on this instrument") on a 19th century concertina like this, I cannot see any objection to re-creating a facsimile of an original Paper label, after all, you have the number. And while you are at it, why not a Wheatstone " Conduit st." label for the right hand side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 I certainly would not attempt to re-create a serial number label. If selling the instrument I would simply provide the information you have given here and let a buyer make their own judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Holder Posted December 15, 2011 Author Share Posted December 15, 2011 As the only place where the serial number would have been (Chris Algar often says "I cannot find a number anywhere on this instrument") on a 19th century concertina like this, I cannot see any objection to re-creating a facsimile of an original Paper label, after all, you have the number. And while you are at it, why not a Wheatstone " Conduit st." label for the right hand side. I agree Geoff, but only as far as the makers name. I don't think I would put a serial number label in, because the only thing I have seen is a pencil written number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Holder Posted December 15, 2011 Author Share Posted December 15, 2011 I certainly would not attempt to re-create a serial number label. If selling the instrument I would simply provide the information you have given here and let a buyer make their own judgement. I think you're probably right Theo. I must admit, the forensic science has proved part of the fascination for me. Those Horniman ledgers are amazing! I made wooden plate racks for 10 years of my life and I wish now we'd kept such detailed sales books! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Have you compared yours with the Wheatstone ledger entry for 20113? It reads: 1882 Nov 28 48 Rosewood Metal Round I take it that 'Rosewood' refers to the ends, 'metal' could refer to the buttons, and 'round' could be the shape of the tops of the buttons, which all seems to be cosistent with your photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malcolm clapp Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Have you compared yours with the Wheatstone ledger entry for 20113? It reads: 1882 Nov 28 48 Rosewood Metal Round I take it that 'Rosewood' refers to the ends, 'metal' could refer to the buttons, and 'round' could be the shape of the tops of the buttons, which all seems to be cosistent with your photos. Off topic, but intrigued with Wheatstone # 20100 on this same page. Described as a 56 key ebony with "solid bellows". Hmmm. Am I missing something here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 As the only place where the serial number would have been (Chris Algar often says "I cannot find a number anywhere on this instrument") on a 19th century concertina like this, I cannot see any objection to re-creating a facsimile of an original Paper label, after all, you have the number. And while you are at it, why not a Wheatstone " Conduit st." label for the right hand side. I agree Geoff, but only as far as the makers name. I don't think I would put a serial number label in, because the only thing I have seen is a pencil written number. Well, on reflexion yes perhaps not the serial number. This pencil marking could also be a date. This model was made just like this for many years after. Maybe a photo or two of the Reedpan would give a clue to its real age. Wheatstone made some changes to their Pans and reeds between the 1880's and the post 1900 period. How to tell an early reedpan from a later one; the early types might have a flat reedpan... the chamber walls could be all of the same height from the lowest notes to the highest. There could also be no cross walls in the chambers, the little blocks that close off the chambers just a little further in than the ends of the reeds. Reeds could be rivetted to their frames. The later types have tapered reedpans, where the reed chamber walls are much deeper at the lower notes and taper down towards the higher notes. Geoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Have you compared yours with the Wheatstone ledger entry for 20113? It reads: 1882 Nov 28 48 Rosewood Metal Round I take it that 'Rosewood' refers to the ends, 'metal' could refer to the buttons, and 'round' could be the shape of the tops of the buttons, which all seems to be cosistent with your photos. Theo, I would suggest that as there is a line drawn under the one entry for 'Rosewood Metal Round' that that refers to just that one instrument and below the line the rest of the page is a batch of Rosewood ended 48's perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apprenticeOF Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Geoff Interesting note about the reedpan changes. I have Wheatstone 48k treble #22949 (I'm guessing about 1898 vintage) that has some "inserts" in the reedpans. This one has screwed down reeds, so I'm guessing this may be a result of a transition from riveted reeds. Appearance wise, this one is identical to Andy's except that it retains its leather baffles - to which are attached the serial number and maker's labels. Perhaps Andy's was originally fitted with the leather baffles and when someone removed them to brighten the sound, there went the labels. (I like the sound with the baffles in) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Geoff Interesting note about the reedpan changes. I have Wheatstone 48k treble #22949 (I'm guessing about 1898 vintage) that has some "inserts" in the reedpans. This one has screwed down reeds, so I'm guessing this may be a result of a transition from riveted reeds. Appearance wise, this one is identical to Andy's except that it retains its leather baffles - to which are attached the serial number and maker's labels. Perhaps Andy's was originally fitted with the leather baffles and when someone removed them to brighten the sound, there went the labels. (I like the sound with the baffles in) I have a Wheatstone 48 treble which is 250 numbers before yours and it has "inserts" for all the chambers, screwed frames, and equal height chamber walls. I recall that the "inserts" were first put in the chambers of the highest notes but it is interesting that a later instrument than mine does not have all the inserts. I did have a very similar instrument to yours and Andy's but from 1925... this had all the inserts and tapered chamber wall heights. So there were quite a few subtle changes made to the reedpans and reeds over the years and this has left us with instruments of differing character, of sound, of response and balance through the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Holder Posted December 17, 2011 Author Share Posted December 17, 2011 (edited) Wow, such a lot of information. Thanks guys. Here's the reed pan. The chambers are the same depth and the reeds are riveted, however, it does have chamber dividers. Does this give more of a clue? I've found the number 20113 in two places so I'm guessing that must be the S/N. I read the ledger as being 13 Dec 1882, Rosewood polished 48 button. Darn, I can't get the photos to show, it just appears as a link. How do I get the actual image to appear? Andy Edited December 17, 2011 by Andy Holder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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