Andy Holder Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 Helle all. I'm just embarking on making my first instrument, a 3 row anglo. I've nearly finished the bellows (I figured I'd start with one of the hard bits first). I have been using hide glue, with all its accompanying smells and difficulties. I've now started thinking, my wife's vegetarian, my daughter's vegetarian, I'm hovering on the brink of being vegetarian, my workshop's in the house and this stuff stinks! Does anyone know of any serious, sophisticated 21st century adhesives that would do the job (I don't mean PVA!) Are Aliphatics too rigid? Does Cascamite, which is an extremely brittle glue, like hide glue, behave in the same way? What about modified polymers? Any ideas? I'm starting to see the faces of the terrified animals as they file into the abbatoir! Thanks Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apprenticeOF Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 You might try "Liquid Hide Wood Glue". I am quite happy with the results I get using this product from Titebond. It's still hide glue, but without the smell, heating pot etc. I use it primarily on bellows, and seems to be standing up very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Any ideas? I was going to recommend this Vegetarian concertina thread, but searching through it for the word "glue", I don't think that it answered your question. Oh, well. Good luck on your search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Holder Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share Posted November 27, 2011 You might try "Liquid Hide Wood Glue". I am quite happy with the results I get using this product from Titebond. It's still hide glue, but without the smell, heating pot etc. I use it primarily on bellows, and seems to be standing up very well. Thanks for that. I was wondering about the original Titebond, which I use all the time for furniture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Holder Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share Posted November 27, 2011 Thanks Jim. an interesting thread, quite tongue in cheek, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Why not pva? There are plenty of good woodworking adhesives that are pva. The Titebond aliphatics are good too. All the synthetics though are more or less permanent. The big advantage of hide glue is that it can be undone with moisture and warmth. What about the other animal products you are likely to use: leather and wool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 What about the other animal products you are likely to use: leather and wool? I would think it would depend on the philosophical basis for wanting to avoid animal products. Leather does (so far) require a dead animal, but wool doesn't. Shearing sheep is even considered to benefit the sheep. And as far as I know, sheep aren't (yet?) raised in such close quarters as are considered abusive, as can be the case with chickens and pigs. Not enough profit in sheep these days to justify such "factory" farming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill N Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Helle all. Does Cascamite, which is an extremely brittle glue, like hide glue, behave in the same way? What about modified polymers? Any ideas? I'm starting to see the faces of the terrified animals as they file into the abbatoir! Thanks Andy. Lee Valley Tools (Canadian, but with international online catalogue sales) stocks "Veritas" fish glue. Not exactly vegetarian, but it is an excellent, reversible substitute for hide glue, and is ready to use from the bottle. No smell. I use it for fine furniture restoration work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wes williams Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Hi Andy, I'm still using a 20th century solid paste, purchased over 30 years ago, called Shoemakers Paste, made by F W Ball. I only use it for bellows patches, so I stil have 2/3 of the tub left. I don't know what is in it, and they don't make it anymore. But its still as good as the day I got it. Are vegetarian stinks OK? If so, here is a recipe for a homemade version: Shoemakers Paste is made by taking barley-meal and, with warm water, mixing into a thick paste. Hot water is added to bring it to the required consistency. It should then be placed in a warm place to ferment, which may be ascertained by the sour smell. This is a tenacious, smooth paste, free from lumps, and is a splendid adherent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apprenticeOF Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Theo is right about PVA. I use it for most jobs but have found that using the liquid hide glue for some bellows work is advantageous. The liquid hide glue seems to really make the leather more pliable and thus easier to achieve a neat job for the exposed leather parts. It is somewhat like working with liquid honey though, so I keep a bowl of water and paper towels handy. When making a bellows from scratch I use PVA for the bottom joint as it is less trouble and stronger. Note that my method for making bellows owes a lot to the instructions of Bob Tedrow (Homewood), modified to suit my equipment, and modified in materials to suit English 'tinas. Bob's instructions call for PVA in the bottom joint and hide glue for gussets etc. My thanks to Bob for his willingness to share expertise. Note: liquid hide glue can be a skin irritant (doesn't bother mine) so the use of disposable vinyl glove is recommended. The only other adhesive I use is Elmer's School Glue, for bellows papers and Chamois gasket work, as recommended in Dave's book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Holder Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share Posted November 27, 2011 Helle all. Does Cascamite, which is an extremely brittle glue, like hide glue, behave in the same way? What about modified polymers? Any ideas? I'm starting to see the faces of the terrified animals as they file into the abbatoir! Thanks Andy. Lee Valley Tools (Canadian, but with international online catalogue sales) stocks "Veritas" fish glue. Not exactly vegetarian, but it is an excellent, reversible substitute for hide glue, and is ready to use from the bottle. No smell. I use it for fine furniture restoration work. Excellent Bill, I'll check that out. I'm also a keen sailor so anything fishy is good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Holder Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share Posted November 27, 2011 Why not pva? There are plenty of good woodworking adhesives that are pva. The Titebond aliphatics are good too. All the synthetics though are more or less permanent. The big advantage of hide glue is that it can be undone with moisture and warmth. What about the other animal products you are likely to use: leather and wool? Hi Theo. It's not an over zealous thing with me, but I do my gluing in the dining room, with the glue pot on the Rayburn and Julia doesn't like me boiling up dead animals! I do wear leather shoes and occasionally eat a delicious lamb casserole. I have an alcohol problem so can't use anything with alcohol in the title (PVA). I'm going to look at fish glue though! Incidentally, joking aside, I've just glued some linen round the outside edges of a bellows with pearl glue and 30% of it didn't stick. Too cool? not enough glue? too much glue? Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Holder Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share Posted November 27, 2011 Hi Andy, I'm still using a 20th century solid paste, purchased over 30 years ago, called Shoemakers Paste, made by F W Ball. I only use it for bellows patches, so I stil have 2/3 of the tub left. I don't know what is in it, and they don't make it anymore. But its still as good as the day I got it. Are vegetarian stinks OK? If so, here is a recipe for a homemade version: Shoemakers Paste is made by taking barley-meal and, with warm water, mixing into a thick paste. Hot water is added to bring it to the required consistency. It should then be placed in a warm place to ferment, which may be ascertained by the sour smell. This is a tenacious, smooth paste, free from lumps, and is a splendid adherent. Wow Wes, that is dedicated. I might have a go at that. Is that Ball, as in Farrow and Ball? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Holder Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share Posted November 27, 2011 Theo is right about PVA. I use it for most jobs but have found that using the liquid hide glue for some bellows work is advantageous. The liquid hide glue seems to really make the leather more pliable and thus easier to achieve a neat job for the exposed leather parts. It is somewhat like working with liquid honey though, so I keep a bowl of water and paper towels handy. When making a bellows from scratch I use PVA for the bottom joint as it is less trouble and stronger. Note that my method for making bellows owes a lot to the instructions of Bob Tedrow (Homewood), modified to suit my equipment, and modified in materials to suit English 'tinas. Bob's instructions call for PVA in the bottom joint and hide glue for gussets etc. My thanks to Bob for his willingness to share expertise. Note: liquid hide glue can be a skin irritant (doesn't bother mine) so the use of disposable vinyl glove is recommended. The only other adhesive I use is Elmer's School Glue, for bellows papers and Chamois gasket work, as recommended in Dave's book. I, too, am using Bob's fantastic instructions. However, some of my measurements are in those really small bits, millimetres! I'm going to try the Titebond Liquid Hide Glue as I've always found the original titebond to be excellent. I have just bought a lovely hide of pneumatic leather 0.6mm and I don't want to waste a bit of it. I'm trying to sort out a reasonably cheap way of skiving it without the expense of Bob's wonderful machine. Trouble is, I haven't yet got the skill for manual skiving. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kautilya Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 http://www.theidentitystore.co.uk/productdetails.asp?ID=767&subcatID=31 Leathercraft Cement, sold in UK imported from US, made in China - lady at this store in Matlock in Derbyshire also does all kinds of craft knives, thin leather offcuts and good advice over the phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 http://www.theidenti...767&subcatID=31 Leathercraft Cement, sold in UK imported from US, made in China - lady at this store in Matlock in Derbyshire also does all kinds of craft knives, thin leather offcuts and good advice over the phone. If we are talking about gluing leather then I endorse this. I didn't read the original post carefully enough and assumed that you were asking about a glue for woodwork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Viehoff Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I have an alcohol problem so can't use anything with alcohol in the title (PVA). PVA glue is made from polyvinyl acetate, not polyvinyl alcohol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laitch Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I'm starting to see the faces of the terrified animals as they file into the abbatoir! On the bright side, Andy, if you must use hide glue, animals are calm in an abattoir designed by Temple Grandin, so picture them instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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