Have prices gone completely crazy?

[ceemonster]

"vintage versus contemporary" threads seem to recur periodically....perhaps another is indeed due. the issues coming up are certainly thought-provoking.

 

viz,

 

[There is pressure on young players who feel that to have a shot at the All Ireland they need to be seen to play a Jeffries concertina.] really? i had no idea. i thought wheatstone and good crabbs were seen as par with jeffries, just different....

Edited November 22, 2011 by ceemonster

[Anglo-Irishman]

A keyed flute is a must on the higher levels [of Irish music competitions], even when the keys aren't used at all.

 

Appearances count in that field.

 

Peter, It's a funny old world, isn't it!

 

I was recently at a performance of Bach's B-minor Mass by my daughter's choir. It was state-of-the-art in that the orchestra was equipped entirely with baroque instruments: gut-strung string section with short, pointed bows, woodwind instruments all keyless, the brass all natural trumpets, and even the horn solo played on a valveless instrument with much use of the right hand to stop the bell for the accidentals.

 

And of course the very elaborate flute solo parts were played on keyless, wooden flutes. (OK, flutes are in D, which is the relative major of B-minor, but even so ...)

 

The history books tell us that the flute became popular in Irish rural music when the professional players all upgraded to the new-fangled, chromatic Böhm flutes, and cut their losses by selling their keyless flutes off cheap to anyone who was interested.

 

Now, it seems, the tide has turned - if what you say is true, we may soon find the "historically informed performance" fraternity swapping flutes with the ITM fraternity, because one wouldn't be seen dead with keys, and the other daren't venture on stage without them!

 

Not much concertina relevance here, but listening to that historically informed performance of music that is well known from many performances and recordings by "conventional" orchestras, it was noticeable that the difference was more in the sound than in the phrasing. Gut-strung violins are smoother than steel-trung ones, and natural trumpets have a "wildness" that valve trumpets never have. And of course a wooden flute is less strident than a metal one.

I'd say that the difference is analogous to traditional English concertina reeds versus traditional German reeds, or either of these versus accordion reeds. Which sounds better depends on what you want to hear.

 

Cheers,

John

[spindizzy]

A keyed flute is a must on the higher levels [of Irish music competitions], even when the keys aren't used at all.

 

Appearances count in that field.

 

And of course the very elaborate flute solo parts were played on keyless, wooden flutes. (OK, flutes are in D, which is the relative major of B-minor, but even so ...)

The history books tell us that the flute became popular in Irish rural music when the professional players all upgraded to the new-fangled, chromatic Böhm flutes, and cut their losses by selling their keyless flutes off cheap to anyone who was interested.

 

 

The 19th (and early 20thC) flutes that that got taken up by ITM when the Boehm flutes came in were fully keyed (and in C) . Orchestral players moved en masse into boehm system flutes for their volume and tuning :-)

Modern ITM keyless flutes are in D, I don't know about the Baroque keless flutes though.

 

Chris

[Geoff Wooff]

A keyed flute is a must on the higher levels [of Irish music competitions], even when the keys aren't used at all.

 

Appearances count in that field.

 

And of course the very elaborate flute solo parts were played on keyless, wooden flutes. (OK, flutes are in D, which is the relative major of B-minor, but even so ...)

The history books tell us that the flute became popular in Irish rural music when the professional players all upgraded to the new-fangled, chromatic Böhm flutes, and cut their losses by selling their keyless flutes off cheap to anyone who was interested.

 

 

The 19th (and early 20thC) flutes that that got taken up by ITM when the Boehm flutes came in were fully keyed (and in C) . Orchestral players moved en masse into boehm system flutes for their volume and tuning :-)

Modern ITM keyless flutes are in D, I don't know about the Baroque keless flutes though.

 

Chris

 

A little thread drift here but ,to be pedantic the terminology on wind instruments is that ones called C instruments are those were the note you are playing is the note you get. A Bb instrument will give you Bb when you play C. Tricky is it not ? Therefore the Orchestral flute is a C instrument and so is the 'so-called' Irish Keyless D flute. In fact the keyless Irish flute is a 19th Century 8key orchestral flute without the keys.

 

The baroque flute, which has one key for playing Eb (and doing a bit of crossfingered humoring of bad notes) is also a C instrument even if it does not have a low C note. Usually the Baroque flutes were made to a different pitch standard and often in different sizes (lengths) these of different lengths are not C instruments. All getting too complicated and too much thread drift... sorry

Geoff.

Edited November 24, 2011 by Geoff Wooff

[Peter Laban]

One could easily argue that the common flute for Irish music was not the keyless baroque flute but the stronger sounding 19th century English (and a few German) keyed flutes.

 

The keyless flute for Irish music was introduced by the more modern makers, from the seventies onward would be my guess, because most fluteplayers didn't make much use of the keys to begin with (and quite often removed the leaky ones anyway).

[Lawrence Reeves]

The flute situation of keyless from the seventies is correct. I would even say 1980s. Modern makers such as Hammy Hamilton, Michael Copeland, Eugene Lamb, and Patrick Olwell were all makers of concert flutes in the early boom of interest in the 1980s. They each took careful measurement of the antique, and were making modified ( to enhance response and tuning) simple system flutes. If not for these early pioneers in flute making many of us would have still been searching for limited quantities of playable antiques. Previous to the "modern makers", the German factory made instruments would have been a lower cost alternative for a flute player. The German instruments in general lack the power and presence of an English flute of the mid to late 19th century,but like the inexpensive German made concertinas were available to the masses. The idea of keyless flutes being easier to make, and obviously quicker to make compared to a traditionally block mounted keyed flute placed these instruments in hands of many players. The cost factor is also a reason for popularity. Many people with keyed flutes use one or two keys for F natural, and an alternate C natural to facilitate ease of fingering. I would loosely say the keys are not "needed" for many players. In my case, I like to play certain tunes that do require keys such as A Bunch of Keys, the Drunken Sailor and many tunes in the repertoire of Bobby Casey. That said, if handed a keyless flute or a whistle I am content to play all night in almost any setting.

[Peter Laban]

I said seventies because I allowed for people Brendan McMahon and Bruce DuVé who were a bit ahead of the big wave.

 

I also wouldn't discount the (as I said, a few) German flutes completely, John McKenna seemed to have been doing OK on one and he was arguably one of the most influential players during his lifetime and long after . I handled and tried Josie Hayes' Metzler (brought over from the US by Paddy Killoran) and it was no shrinking violet. JC Talty did fine in the Tulla on his ivory headed flute. There are plenty of examples of German flutes used to good effect in Ireland during most of the 20th century.

[Lawrence Reeves]

Totally agree Peter. I have owned a few decent Germans, and they can have a fine tone. Matt Molloy said his father brought one back from America that was a good one. I do think that most are hard to push to the same volume level as an English big holed version. So much of playing the flute is the creation of a resistance between the embouchure and the embouchure hole of the headjoint.

[Rod]

Hello all. I have recently tried to go for 2 Jeffries anglos locally. The first was in Lawrences Auctioneers in Crewkerne, Somerset. Guide price £500-£700. I know that was a silly estimate but the bidding started at £2,100 and, within 15 seconds sold for £3,400. With the commission and VAT that's £4,746.

Last week there was another in Charterhouse in Sherborne that sold for £4,200. With commission that's nearly 6 grand! As far as I could see from the picture, they both needed work.

Who's buying them at these prices? I've given up any idea of ever getting a Jeffries now, short of finding one in a charity shop for £100!

I guess we have the power of the internet to thank, which means everything finds its own level.

Any thoughts?

 

The 'Western Gazette' of 24 November suggests that the Laurences Auctioneers 'Jeffries' bidding reached £4,060 ....'from collectors'. Hope the purchaser was more than a mere collector !

[Andy Holder]

Hello all. I have recently tried to go for 2 Jeffries anglos locally. The first was in Lawrences Auctioneers in Crewkerne, Somerset. Guide price £500-£700. I know that was a silly estimate but the bidding started at £2,100 and, within 15 seconds sold for £3,400. With the commission and VAT that's £4,746.

Last week there was another in Charterhouse in Sherborne that sold for £4,200. With commission that's nearly 6 grand! As far as I could see from the picture, they both needed work.

Who's buying them at these prices? I've given up any idea of ever getting a Jeffries now, short of finding one in a charity shop for £100!

I guess we have the power of the internet to thank, which means everything finds its own level.

Any thoughts?

 

The 'Western Gazette' of 24 November suggests that the Laurences Auctioneers 'Jeffries' bidding reached £4,060 ....'from collectors'. Hope the purchaser was more than a mere collector !

 

Was that an intentional pun Rod? I live in Mere, Wiltshire, so I suppose I'm a "mere collector". Incidentally, we often finish a meal with a Mere Trifle!

[Kautilya]

Serendipity! Chanced upon a flautist getting on to the Tube Thursday night and mentioned this discussion. She had just been playing in a concert of 'ancient' music (she flauts in one of the main London orchestras tho I cant recall which) and when I mentioned playing genuine 'old music' only on un-keyed flutes and the big shift after Boehm she produced her........... one-keyed baroque flute!! Look like it was black ebony.

 

I was also asking her about identifying a French court dance flute piece a couple of us have been trying to find a name for. It was played along with various instruments including a concertina.

 

Would any of u flutlogists here be interested in trying to identify it? :unsure:

Edited November 27, 2011 by Kautilya