guide for very new beginner

[Nisse]

Wow, thanks Leo! You are really devoted to my case

I knew the first 3 videos and love the 2 first ones. About La vie en rose, both players do not play the original, some notes are "false". Perhaps it is an arrangement, perhaps it is a limitation of the concertina itself? Both are anglos, but I could not say how many buttons they have...? Anyway I suppose you are right that the 3 types could play what I am after, depending on the player . I liked the layout for 48 buttons. It looks very nice with all the # close to their original notes Very tidy and logical, seen from where I am...

Edited November 17, 2011 by Nisse

[ChrisK]

A couple of points - back on the original thread.

 

My main box is a 30 key Connor C/G anglo. I also have a 30 key C/G Gremlin Stagi (slotted metal ends with plastic butons and accordeon reeds) which I bought from a flea market in Vienna a couple of years ago for 70 euros . I take this box out to places where I don't want to risk my Connor. It is not a bad box. The higher notes on the G row are a bit thin. It doesn't sound as nice as the Connor and is a little slower. It is, though, quite playable and produces an acceptable sound and I can play jigs and hornpipes on it without any difficulty. Maybe I got lucky and found a good one! I believe Hobgoblin sell them in the UK for about £330 new.

 

As far as 20 buttons go - although William Kimber played a 30 key Jeffries, he learned his entire Morris repertiore on a 20 key instrument. When he was presented with his Jeffries, he continued to play them as such. Dan Worrall's book about Kimber's playing makes a good read on this subject. The notes I would really miss on a 20 key instrument are the C^#s, the reverse A/Gs and the low F on the left hand side.

 

Chris

[Johanna]

If you've decided you want to go with the English concertina, I'd encourage you to give the Jackie another look. If cost is an important factor for you, the Jackie really does give you quite a lot for the price. They can be somewhat awkward with very fast tunes, but it sounds like most of the things you want to play are not very fast anyway.

 

But if you want to play music with a lot of chords, you'll really want an instrument that is perfectly in tune, at least with itself. If you buy a Jackie, you can be pretty sure that it will be in tune. (At least, I've played several different Jackies and haven't noticed any tuning problems with any of them.) If you buy a vintage instrument, you don't know - unless you pay to have it tuned or buy it from someone who's just tuned it, both of which can be expensive.

 

And if you decide later that you want to upgrade to a vintage instrument, knowing your way around a Jackie will put you in a much better position to decide if a particular vintage concertina is right for you, because you'll be able to play it yourself.

[Nisse]

Hi Chris and Johanna, and thanks for good advices. I think that I will follow them, but first I will try and buy a cheap cheap cheap concertina on ebay , meant for my kids to have fun with (I see one at £5 for the moment, still has time on it though but it looks like a cheap instrument anyway), and then I will borrow it for them to see how it feels to hold and place my hands on the buttons and so on.

Then, if I still feel this is something for me in a more serious way, then I will either send a mail to Chris or Theo for advices and possibly buy from them, or buy a new Jackie.

Sounds like I have a plan...

[ChrisK]

Nisse,

 

Another factor to consider if you go for an older 20 key Lachenal is the pitch of the instrument. Modern instruments are pitched A=440hz. Most of the older Lachenals are pitched slightly higher than this - around A=444hz. Do you intend playing along with other instruments? Having an older instrument tuned down - even a 20 key - is not a cheap option.

 

Chris

[Andy Holder]

Hi Nisse.

If you instinctively feel good with the Harmonica, you should be able to play an Anglo almost straight out of the box, it's practically the same instrument However, I found the English, which I bought to try an accompany my fiddle playing partner, is a complete nightmare from hell!

If I was told to sit down with a paper and pencil and design an instrument which is the least intuitive, most awkward and difficult to understand layout, then an English Concertina is what I'd come up with!

That's only my opinion though

Andy.

[Wolf Molkentin]

If I was told to sit down with a paper and pencil and design an instrument which is the least intuitive, most awkward and difficult to understand layout, then an English Concertina is what I'd come up with!

Many of those being familiar with an "Ebony and Ivory" keybord (or some sheet music) might feel and judge much different: you get black and white keys, lines and spaces, thirds and fiths...

[Nisse]

It will be Jackie from Chris Can't wait

[Andy Holder]

If I was told to sit down with a paper and pencil and design an instrument which is the least intuitive, most awkward and difficult to understand layout, then an English Concertina is what I'd come up with!

Many of those being familiar with an "Ebony and Ivory" keybord (or some sheet music) might feel and judge much different: you get black and white keys, lines and spaces, thirds and fiths...

 

I know, I was going to say that! But could you possibly imagine playing the piano and harmonica at the same time? Yikes!

[Andy Holder]

However, it has to be said, you don't play the piano with alternate hands up the scale - touché!

[Anglo-Irishman]

If I was told to sit down with a paper and pencil and design an instrument which is the least intuitive, most awkward and difficult to understand layout, then an English Concertina is what I'd come up with!

 

Andy,

 

This is assuming that someone had already come up with the Bandoneon, and you don't want to duplicate the work ...?

 

 

Cheers,

John

[RickPick]

I find Bill N's post very helpful, as I am totally new to the world of concertinas but am (for some yet-to-be-discovered reason) determined to buy one! And I live in Canada, although on the sunnier side. I've played guitar for years and have taken up fiddle in the past 10-12 months, with a special interest in Celtic and bluegrass music. My current interest in the concertina comes from my fiddle teacher exposing me to more Celtic music. I've had enough experience with buying musical instruments to know that "cheap" is a terrible way to get introduced, but spending $4000 on a new violin on which to learn is downright foolish. So getting this perspective on the Rochelle (and thanks to the poster who flagged the Rochelle...)is so useful. I don't know that I'll ever play a concertina a great deal (I need all the practice time I can get on the fiddle!), but I'd rather spend several hundred on a decent starter instrument than waste it on the latest techno/digital gadget they are marketing for Christmas. But to get started, a person really needs the insight this post brings. And this entire forum is SO helpful. I hope I'll become a regular questioner!

[DaveM]

I'm in exactly the same boat:

I find Bill N's post very helpful, as I am totally new to the world of concertinas but am (for some yet-to-be-discovered reason) determined to buy one!

and found everyones' input in this thread (as well as others) helpful in this recent round of thrashing about trying to decide on a system.

(I've been renting an Anglo for the past two months, but think that I'm heading towards English.)

[Marcus]

I was in the same predicament as Nisse when I first decided on the concertina as my instrument of choice. Located in Bermuda it is impossible to find any instruments to try or rent. I had hatched the idea of trying a concertina and had to wait months before a scheduled family holiday to the UK before even seeing one in person! I remember being adamant that I had to be at John Dipper's workshop on the English Concertina at Sidmouth folk festival and diligently showed up every morning for class. John was the person who recommended that I try the Anglo as I wanted to play Irish music and possibly the odd Morris tune. I ended up trying Anglos all over the festival, and was completely blown away by the pricing! I settled on a Stagi 30 button - maybe I should have gone with a Lachenal 20 button. I had never even played an Anglo at this point! I picked up Mick Bramich's tutor and have never looked back. I have no opportunity of playing with other Anglo players unless I travel to other countries, but that doesn't hold me back. Maybe my techniques not perfect, but I have a great time and it's forums like this where us isolated concertinists can at least feel a part of the free reed world!

I have to say that after six months of playing the Stagi became a bit of a hinderance to playing reels upmto tempo. I ended up ordering a Morse Ceili - purely based on customer reviews. Again there was no chance of trying one! I was not disappointed. Sure it would be great to be able to play an authentic reeded concertina, but my Morse can do everything I need it to do and now I'm the only hinderance to my own progress!

I have to also recommend the Skype lessons offered by Jody Kruskal and other top players. For players like me the Internet is a treasure trove and technology allows us to connect. I have been taking Skype lessons with Jody and the quality and personal instruction are more than worth the investment.

All that to say that if Nisse takes up English, Anglo or any other system, she's joining a great community and starting on a very interesting adventure. Nowadays, being isolated from other players is inconvenient, but not insurmountable!

Good luck!

[ceemonster]

re the advisability of a 20-button: my emphatic two cents, contrary to one school of thought often aired in starter-concertina discussions, is that if you have even a wisp of a soupcon of a hint of a thought that you might stick with concertina, particularly if you already have some musical knowledge, this is not a good investment. you will outgrow it in about twenty minutes, particularly if you are attracted to other genres of music beyond irish.

 

re "hybrids" playing as responsively and fast as concertina-reeded instruments and differing only as to sound: i disagree. unfortunately, most of the hybrids do not respond and play as fast as suttners, dippers, or well-functioning, good quality vintage concertinas. some do. but some do not. in one it is a matter of slow, resistive reed response, in another, it is slow post-and-lever action, in another it's stuffy air delivery....etc, etc. i greatly regret my hybrid purchases. once you hit $1700.00 and up into the two-thousands, they DO need to be as fast and responsive as concertina-reeded instruments, and most. are. not. (YES, they all play better than stagis, and way better than asian.)

 

which brings me to the point made by the poster who contrasted with the guitar market and the lack of affordable starter concertinas (and, i would add, the lack of $1500-2500 accordion-reeded concertinas that ARE as fast and responsive as suttners and dippers), i could not agree more. i was bloviating about this recently on another thread, using precisely the analogy of guitar. in guitar, with careful consumer research, you can get a starter that at the price of an unplayable asian concertina, in physical playability terms (not tone), will be about as playable as a high-end guitar costing thousands of dollars. and when you upgrade, though the $7,000.00 custom-made Froggy Bottom or the $12,000.00 vintage Martin is certainly out there, you can get a life-time investment, incredible guitar for between $,2000.00 and $3,000.00. this for an instrument that is fully chromatic, playable in all keys, and capable of musical complexity from folk to bebop jazz to classical. all this applies same to PAs and CBAs---there are very playable starters, and you can get wonderful ones in the two-to-three grand range, though the super-expensive ones with tone chambers and all that are certainly out there.

 

i love concertinas. they are magical little creatures. but i agree--this is one of the reasons they are not more widely played. the asians need to improve the starters (i believe they are on the cusp of this), and there need to be more upgrade options in the $1700-3000 range expensive-which deliver extremely fast response and rich sound, albeit with accordion reeds...

 

bisonoric versus unisonoric: i second the opinion that if you envision yourself playing multiple genres rather than only irish or morris, and you think you might wish to play in a number of "black keys," EC or duet may be the way to go.

Edited December 4, 2011 by ceemonster

[Frank Edgley]

re the advisability of a 20-button: my emphatic two cents, contrary to one school of thought often aired in starter-concertina discussions, is that if you have even a wisp of a soupcon of a hint of a thought that you might stick with concertina, particularly if you already have some musical knowledge, this is not a good investment. you will outgrow it in about twenty minutes, particularly if you are attracted to other genres of music beyond irish.

 

re "hybrids" playing as responsively and fast as concertina-reeded instruments and differing only as to sound: i disagree. unfortunately, most of the hybrids do not respond and play as fast as suttners, dippers, or well-functioning, good quality vintage concertinas. some do. but some do not. in one it is a matter of slow, resistive reed response, in another, it is slow post-and-lever action, in another it's stuffy air delivery....etc, etc. i greatly regret my hybrid purchases. once you hit $1700.00 and up into the two-thousands, they DO need to be as fast and responsive as concertina-reeded instruments, and most. are. not. (YES, they all play better than stagis, and way better than asian.)

 

which brings me to the point made by the poster who contrasted with the guitar market and the lack of affordable starter concertinas (and, i would add, the lack of $1500-2500 accordion-reeded concertinas that ARE as fast and responsive as suttners and dippers), i could not agree more. i was bloviating about this recently on another thread, using precisely the analogy of guitar. in guitar, with careful consumer research, you can get a starter that at the price of an unplayable asian concertina, in physical playability terms (not tone), will be about as playable as a high-end guitar costing thousands of dollars. and when you upgrade, though the $7,000.00 custom-made Froggy Bottom or the $12,000.00 vintage Martin is certainly out there, you can get a life-time investment, incredible guitar for between $,2000.00 and $3,000.00. this for an instrument that is fully chromatic, playable in all keys, and capable of musical complexity from folk to bebop jazz to classical. all this applies same to PAs and CBAs---there are very playable starters, and you can get wonderful ones in the two-to-three grand range, though the super-expensive ones with tone chambers and all that are certainly out there.

 

i love concertinas. they are magical little creatures. but i agree--this is one of the reasons they are not more widely played. the asians need to improve the starters (i believe they are on the cusp of this), and there need to be more upgrade options in the $1700-3000 range expensive-which deliver extremely fast response and rich sound, albeit with accordion reeds...

 

bisonoric versus unisonoric: i second the opinion that if you envision yourself playing multiple genres rather than only irish or morris, and you think you might wish to play in a number of "black keys," EC or duet may be the way to go.

 

Interesting post. I was drawn to the following statement,"...they DO need to be as fast and responsive as concertina-reeded instruments, and most. are. not." I was also pleased to see that you used the word "most", and not the word "all", because that would certainly not be correct. Please visit www.concertinas.ca to see what I mean. The instrument the young man is playing is not even the top model. This is not an expensive $3,000 to $10,000 vintage instrument. I doubt that even he could make a Lachenal and many Wheatstones play as fast. Lachenals are the only vintage instrument readily available that don't cost an arm and a leg, and even those sell for more than these hybrids. I'm sorry you have had a bad experience with some of them.

[Marcus]

I agree Frank!

[Frank Edgley]

I hate to see people buying the Rochelle. Many people like them but in general these people are not experienced players. I don't know any experienced players who like them. Rochelles are heavy, slow, unresponsive instruments. I would certainly not buy one new when with a bit of effort and patience a decent old used one will turn up. I much prefer a good twenty-button Lachenal Anglo. ......

Best is to buy either a good hybrid or a good Lachenal with steel reeds. It's always better to learn on a good instrument. The resale of a good hybrid might entail a loss of a couple of hundred dollars but the instrument would give very good value up to that point, and encourage a beginner to play it. That alone would make it worth the money.

 

I can speak from the perspective of someone who came to the concertina with no experience and little familiarity with the instrument. 4 years on, I now own a Morse hybrid, and a nice 20 button Lachanal, and agree absolutely that they are much easier to play than the Rochelle that got me started, but I would say the following in its defence:

 

*Well built- 4 years without a problem, despite now doing duty as my "camping-let -visiting-children-have-a-go" concertina. Twice I have tried cheap concertinas in a music shop to find that they were already broken.

 

*Reasonably playable- although it takes a bit more effort than the Morse, the action is decent and consistent, it's airtight, and the sound is pleasant and balanced. I've tried Scholers, Scarlatties, Hohners and a Stagi, and it is hands down better to play. And before Colin Dipper kindly laid his hands on my Lachanal at a "meet and greet" last year, it could be maddening to play as well (and it was twice the cost of the Rochelle).

 

*Reputable dealers- I like knowing that the nice folks at the Button Box are only a call away.

 

*Resale/trade up option- I disagree completely with your point about losing money. If you want to trade up to a hybrid, many dealers will give you full trade in value. As for resale, I've followed the sales of used Rochelles, and they seem to depreciate less than a 1/3 of their value. Cheaper than renting an instrument to try out.

 

*Availability- Might be different in Ireland, but here in Canada concertinas are thin on the ground. As a beginner, i wouldn't have dreamed of buying a complicated bit of 100 year old engineering sight-unseen from ebay, or take a chance on a cheap Chinese box from an anonymous ebay dealer.

 

*Price- My main point: My brother plays guitar. As a beginner, he was able to purchase a decent instrument for a few hundred dollars. It served him well, and allowed him to develop his skill and love of the instrument. All in all, a very low risk investment. Milions of others have done the same, and although many didn't carry on, the intial pool of beginners was large enough, thanks partly to the cheapness and availability of the instrument, that it is one of the most popular instruments in the world. After many years of playing, he recently "treated" himself to a new instrument. Very nice indeed, and about the price of a hybrid concertina. If my only choice 4 years ago for obtaining a playable box was to take an uninformed gamble on ebay or spend $2K to see if I liked the instrument, I wouldn't have proceeded. I think the lack of affordable beginner options is one of the main reasons for the concertina's relative obscurity.

 

That has always been the case. Right now, there are several "affordable options", if you consider Rochelle, Stagi, etc. At least, if your aim is to see whether you like the instrument and have never played one before. True, there are not a lot of affordable options, but they are there. If you mean "affordable options" that you can achieve a high level of playing on, you're correct. Concertinas are very different from guitars, for example, which have a mass market, and concertinas are much more complex instruments, requiring a lot of different parts, tools and materials.

I started on a Scholer, and since I had never held a concertina before, I though was good. Then I moved onto a Bastari, which, being better than the Scholer, I thought was good, also. After I had outgrown the Bastari, I hocked my first-born child and purchased an old 26 button Lachenal from Lark in the Morning. Seriously, it was financially difficult for me, close to 30 years ago, but it was worth it.

I remember pricing a new Crabb, years ago and was shocked at the asking price, which I believe was 700 pounds...outraged would be the more accurate term. But I did not know how much work goes into making a good concertina, and how small the profit margins are. The bottom line is that you get what you pay for. There are cheap options, but they are what they are, and I, personally, am glad they are there. There was no way that I would be playing this instrument, or making them today if I had had to put out close to $3000 thirty years ago. What would that be in terms of todays money?

If you want quality, you have to pay for it. It is an affront to craftsmen who spend a lot of time to make the best instrument they can, for very modest returns, and hear that they are too expensive. Yes, perhaps, one day, the concertina market will be large enough for a better quality concertina that can be made in Asia "for cheap", but they are business men who would cease production at the drop of a hat when they did not make the required profit margins, if concertina popularity dwindled. Then where would we be, if cheap(er) Asian-made concertinas drove western makers out of business? Concertina makers, like Colin Dipper and others do this as a craft, and put their all into it. Let's not let concertinas go the way of Western-made television sets, clothing, tools, most commercially-manufactured goods, and almost the American auto industry!

Edited December 4, 2011 by Frank Edgley