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guide for very new beginner


Nisse

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I played an English system concertina for over ten years before switching to Anglo. I switched to Anglo because I moved to Co Clare and fell in love with the punchy sounds of Anglo players like Micilin Conlin and Tom Driscoll. The English system is easier to learn, and much easier to play for other genres than Irish Trad. An English concertina is also less expensive compared to an Anglo of similar quality.

ah... well, what do I do now..? :blink: Start from the beginning and look for the perfect English..? What do you think about what I red concerning anglos being more robust and holding the right tuning longer? I did not find the thread where I red that a couple of days ago but still searching...

 

Nisse,

You've probably realised it by now - ask 5 Cnetters, and you'll get at least 6 opinions! :D

 

This is because ereveryone is different, and has a different pre-concertina biography, different financial means, friends who play different kinds of music, and different musical aspirations.

 

At least I share your pre-concertina biography - the mouth organ (harmonica) was one of the first instruments I learned to play as a child. Then, when I decided to get a concertina (which I'd heard and liked, but never got my hands on as a child) all that was available was a cheap 20-button East German Anglo (no Internet or cheap Chinese concertinas in those days!) And I was able to get tunes out of it right away, because of my harmonica past. The chords also came fairly quickly - that's the great advantage of the diatonic layout. The 20-button is naturally even more limited in the range of keys than the 30-button, but for my purposes - accompanying singing - two keys were enough. I even led the hymns at youth church services with it!

 

My next step was an antique Bandoneon. Again, I could play basic stuff almost right away, because of my Anglo practice, but I never learned all the secrets of the layout.

 

I then got a 30-button hybrid (accordion-reeded) Anglo, and I've been playing this for nearly 15 years now, with my group and solo. I don't play ITM (if I'd wanted to do that, I'd have stayed with the fiddle :P ) so I don't know whether this much-maligned Stagi would slow me down. It's fast enough for me!

 

Just recently, I got a hankering to play in keys other than C, G and D, and decided on a Crane Duet. These are only available as vintage, traditionally concertina-reeded instruments - mine is a restored Lachenal, dating from the 1920s. I'm teaching myself to play it now - with some help from the Internet - but the greatest help is not my Anglo experience, but rather my experience of music generally, especially with chording instruments like the guitar and the banjo. Of course, the dexterity and bellows control that I've attained on the Anglo helps, too.

 

So my track has been Harmonica - 20-b Anglo - 30-b Anglo - Crane Duet, with some Bandoneon on the side, and fretted strings on a parallel track.

 

Remember, that's just one way to go!

 

Listen to all the advice - and find your way!

 

Cheers,

John

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Yes John, I realised ;) I think I begin to see what I should avoid and what I should dream of B), what I wish, and what I can afford (not necessarily the same thing...). Following on C.net, ebay worldwide and any discussion on concertinas, I probably end up with something to play on at the end :D

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I have been playing and teaching Anglo concertina for over twenty years. I hate to see people buying the Rochelle. Many people like them but in general these people are not experienced players. I don't know any experienced players who like them. Rochelles are heavy, slow, unresponsive instruments. I would certainly not buy one new when with a bit of effort and patience a decent old used one will turn up. I much prefer a good twenty-button Lachenal Anglo. They will do for years and be resalable when and if the time comes to move up. The old 20 button Lachenal Anglos generally go for about the cost of a new Rochelle. Buying a new Rochelle will generally mean some financial loss when the time comes to sell it on.

 

Is there any difference between the many concertinas -- the Stephanelli, Scarlatti, Rossini or the generic "30 Button Black Anglo" -- listed on Ebay and the genuine Rochelle? The Ebay Anglos look exactly like the Rochelle, but are priced less than half of the price of the Rochelle. Third World producers are famous for making and selling a product (knock-offs) that they have been hired to manufacture by one entrepreneur only to sell the rebranded product on the open market. It is very hard to see any difference between the Rochelle and the others on Ebay. One example on Ebay is the Rossini . Another is generic black anglo with "Italian tuned bimetalic German reeds." The price of the latter would be about $200 (€150) - which is below the radar of the customs officials.

 

Best is to buy either a good hybrid or a good Lachenal with steel reeds. It's always better to learn on a good instrument. The resale of a good hybrid might entail a loss of a couple of hundred dollars but the instrument would give very good value up to that point, and encourage a beginner to play it. That alone would make it worth the money.

 

Nisse,

I have to agree with David L., a nice 20 button Lachenal is not much more than a Rochelle, AND, they are so much nicer to play, and listen to, besides the fact that they will hold their resale value. Greg Jowaisas(on this site) and Chris Algar(Barleycorn Concertinas) almost always have several already restored ones in stock waiting for a buyer. In my world, a 20 button Lachenal is what it is all about! Take care, and good luck,

Don

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Nisse,

I have to agree with David L., a nice 20 button Lachenal is not much more than a Rochelle, AND, they are so much nicer to play, and listen to, besides the fact that they will hold their resale value. Greg Jowaisas(on this site) and Chris Algar(Barleycorn Concertinas) almost always have several already restored ones in stock waiting for a buyer. In my world, a 20 button Lachenal is what it is all about! Take care, and good luck,

Don

Thanks Don, that was a good advice :D

I will see with them as soon as I made up my mind about what I actually want :) But really I agree with you, just at the sight of them I would prefer a lovely old Lachenal than a stiff new plastic Rochelle. :huh:

Edited by Nisse
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Boney, the fact that you've "never heard of a generic Chinese concertina ... with the Rochelle's button spacing and riveted action." does not mean that there isn't one.

Which is exactly why I used that wording. I suppose it is possible.

 

If I were in the market for a concertina in that price range I'd certainly want to try some of the supposedly above-average cheapo concertinas on Ebay. That is all I said and all I meant.

If you can somehow do that without risk, and without paying shipping back and forth, and don't mind taking the time to do it, then certainly that makes sense.

 

"Might" is the operative word in what I said. Nothing I said implies necessarily "that [the Rochelle] is the same as all the cheap Chinese concertinas." Some people might read it that way. But that isn't what I said.

Which is why I didn't contradict you, but specifically contradicted the impression some people might get from what you had written. You may not have meant to imply it, but the feeling I got from your post was that it was rather unknown, but quite possible, that a generic Chinese concertina could be a rebadged Rochelle. But having seen many of the generic Chinese concertinas, and read about many more people who also have, and since not a single one of them was similar to a Rochelle internally, I find this highly unlikely.

 

Somebody started a new thread, if you want to follow up on this:

http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=13452

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Hi Nisse

 

Would a 20 button C/G instrument have all the notes for the type of music you wish to play? If not, then a 30 button Anglo, or an English would be needed for the extra sharps and flats. On this diagram of the standard Wheatstone layout, the bottom two rows are the same notes as a 20 button instrument. The top rows contain the additional needed sharps and flats.

http://www.concertinaconnection.com/rochelle%20lay%20out.htm

 

Thanks

Leo :)

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Hi Nisse

 

Would a 20 button C/G instrument have all the notes for the type of music you wish to play? If not, then a 30 button Anglo, or an English would be needed for the extra sharps and flats. On this diagram of the standard Wheatstone layout, the bottom two rows are the same notes as a 20 button instrument. The top rows contain the additional needed sharps and flats.

http://www.concertinaconnection.com/rochelle%20lay%20out.htm

 

Thanks

Leo :)

Hi Leo,

I think the 20 buttons would do most of the time, but I would be frustrated if I can't play something just because the note is not there. That happens quite often on the harmonica and the ocarina, and it is not fun :angry:

When I look on Youtube for music I would like to play, I only see English concertinas. Now I do not know if it means that these are easier on an English, or if it means that English players are more keen than Anglo players to show themselves on Youtube :D

Edited by Nisse
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Nisse is in a difficult position, being along way from any other players or from dealers where she could try out instruments. However she might take some comfort if she remembers that this is the situation most of us were in 30 or so years ago, when there weren't many dealers or other players around and getting hold of an instrument seem to depend on luck and word of mouth. Furthermore, there weren't the hybrids around, let alone starter instruments like the Rochelle, and it was a question of getting hold of whatever you could find (and afford). There were also few repairers about to sort out any refurbishment which might be necessary, and a lot less information about how to carry out repairs yourself - in fact, a lot less information about anything to do with the instrument, including how to play it.

 

Concertinas are expensive - even the Rochelle is expensive compared with a starter guitar or violin. On the other hand they hold their value, but a vintage will probably hold its value better than a Rochelle or similar. You might get a guaranteed trade-in if you upgrade, but for that you'll have to go to a dealer.

 

My advice, if you can stretch to it, would be to get a vintage Lachenal or similar. Take your chance, and if what you get doesn't suit you, put it back on ebay and try again.

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You are quite right there Howard! Haven't it been for internet, I wouldn't even know how this funny little instrument was called, and even less where I could get one from. No concertina.net either... sure I wouldn't have had a chance to try and play at all!

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It teaches you to be careful with the air!

 

Concertina bellows are expensive to make, so I guess they cut down on the student models. My Anglo has five-fold, and I have to be a little careful. As you get better it gets easier - play short notes!

 

More expensive boxes have six or seven fold bellows. My Marcus has seven. But they cost more...

 

Accordion style bellows, as used on cheaper boxes including the Rochelle, are cheaper to make but shallower so you need more folds.

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Hi Leo,

I think the 20 buttons would do most of the time, but I would be frustrated if I can't play something just because the note is not there. That happens quite often on the harmonica and the ocarina, and it is not fun :angry:

When I look on Youtube for music I would like to play, I only see English concertinas. Now I do not know if it means that these are easier on an English, or if it means that English players are more keen than Anglo players to show themselves on Youtube :D

Hi Nisse

 

I suspected as much and frustration isn't necessary. I couldn't make any sense of a harmonica when I tried it, it was beyond my comprehension, so I chose an English which made better sense to me. Different logic and layout.

 

As far as videos, I've found as much as anybody, and there are plenty. What exactly are you looking for? It's not necessarily the instrument, the person pushing the buttons can get a lot out of a concertina.

 

Here's one playing two different instruments; an Anglo, and a Duet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpVOOmmQA5Q&fmt=18

 

An Anglo concertina:

 

An English concertina:

 

On each of the channels, click on their name for lots more.

 

Thanks

Leo

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New question from very new beginner: how much does the number of folds have to say for playing? I see some old Lachenals or Wheatstones with only 4 folds, that looks very short to me...?

 

http://www.flickr.co...ire/4703893204/

 

The instrument you've linked to is an English. The number of folds matters less with an English, because it plays the same note in both directions, so if you run out of air you just change direction. The trick is to do this smoothly.

 

With an Anglo, you have to learn to be more careful with the bellows since it is possible to run out of air if too many notes in a phrase are in the same direction. This applies no matter how large your bellows are, but obviously a larger bellows capacity makes a difference (which mainly means more folds, but also construction and of course leakiness play their part) . You just have to learn ways around this - by learning how use the air-button to control bellows extension, or by finding the note you want in the other direction. Many of the notes on an anglo are in fact available in both directions, but unlike an English you'll find them on a different button.

 

4 folds is not uncommon for a basic EC. You'll probably find a basic Anglo has 5-fold bellows. This is sufficient, and although you may find yourself running out of air from time to time, it does teach you to make good use of the air button - good technique even when you move on to a better instrument.

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It teaches you to be careful with the air!

 

Concertina bellows are expensive to make, so I guess they cut down on the student models. My Anglo has five-fold, and I have to be a little careful. As you get better it gets easier - play short notes!

 

More expensive boxes have six or seven fold bellows. My Marcus has seven. But they cost more...

 

Accordion style bellows, as used on cheaper boxes including the Rochelle, are cheaper to make but shallower so you need more folds.

thanks for the explanation :)

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New question from very new beginner: how much does the number of folds have to say for playing? I see some old Lachenals or Wheatstones with only 4 folds, that looks very short to me...?

 

http://www.flickr.co...ire/4703893204/

 

The instrument you've linked to is an English. The number of folds matters less with an English, because it plays the same note in both directions, so if you run out of air you just change direction. The trick is to do this smoothly.

 

With an Anglo, you have to learn to be more careful with the bellows since it is possible to run out of air if too many notes in a phrase are in the same direction. This applies no matter how large your bellows are, but obviously a larger bellows capacity makes a difference (which mainly means more folds, but also construction and of course leakiness play their part) . You just have to learn ways around this - by learning how use the air-button to control bellows extension, or by finding the note you want in the other direction. Many of the notes on an anglo are in fact available in both directions, but unlike an English you'll find them on a different button.

 

4 folds is not uncommon for a basic EC. You'll probably find a basic Anglo has 5-fold bellows. This is sufficient, and although you may find yourself running out of air from time to time, it does teach you to make good use of the air button - good technique even when you move on to a better instrument.

Thank you so much for the details :)

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Hi Nisse

I suspected as much and frustration isn't necessary. I couldn't make any sense of a harmonica when I tried it, it was beyond my comprehension, so I chose an English which made better sense to me. Different logic and layout.

 

As far as videos, I've found as much as anybody, and there are plenty. What exactly are you looking for? It's not necessarily the instrument, the person pushing the buttons can get a lot out of a concertina.

 

Here's one playing two different instruments; an Anglo, and a Duet:

Hi Leo, and thanks for the videos. I suppose the player and the keys of the concertina have much to say, but I do prefer the sound of the English ones on the videos you linked to. Duet is too close to the accordion to my taste.

What I would like to play, well, mostly songs or popular music like for ex El condor Pasa, La valse d'Amelie, Piaf, etc... and some classicals like Red river valley, oh suzanna, etc... you know... things to play to friends during the long winter evenings :) There is no pubs around here :rolleyes:

Edited by Nisse
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Hi Leo, and thanks for the videos. I suppose the player and the keys of the concertina have much to say, but I do prefer the sound of the English ones on the videos you linked to. Duet is too close to the accordion to my taste.

What I would like to play, well, mostly songs or popular music like for ex El condor Pasa, La valse d'Amelie, Piaf, etc... and some classicals like Red river valley, oh suzanna, etc... you know... things to play to friends during the long winter evenings :) There is no pubs around here :rolleyes:

Hi Nisse

 

That's why I picked three different styles of playing on theree different instruments for clarification. All three are really good concertina players, and members here. The English one is Danny Chapman (Ratface here).

 

Try these. They're the best I can come up with on short notice.

 

El Cóndor Pasa (Concertina) コンドルは飛んでいく コンサーティナ

 

Yann Tiersen La Valse d'Amélie (English Concertina) アメリのワルツ コンサーティナ

 

La vie en rose (Concertina & Guitar)

 

Jan på concertina

 

Dipper G/D Anglo Concertina - Oh Suzanna

(You could play your harmonica with a concertina too.) :lol:

 

I'm really not familiar with Piaf, but I did find one of her songs I recognized. All three of the instruments within their own limitations can play the music you suggested. There really isn't directly one made for one kind of music, but maybe an English would suit better than an Anglo. Here's a note layout for a standard 48 button English. Mine only has 37 buttons, with the other notes missing from the top. I don't miss them since the music I play doesn't use them, and it was lots more expensive when I bought it:

http://www.concertina.info/tina.faq/images/finger6.htm

 

Thanks

Leo B)

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