LOW Pitch on a Lachenal (maybe) duet concertina

[jaimot]

Hi,

My concertina is more or less in tune with itself, but C sounds like Bb and so forth. Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas about this?

thanks for any suggestions,

jaimot

[Dirge]

Hi,

My concertina is more or less in tune with itself, but C sounds like Bb and so forth. Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas about this?

thanks for any suggestions,

jaimot

Could well be in Bb; especially a duet. They made them particularly for people who played with brass and woodwind players; 'transposing instruments' whose music is written with middle C actually sounding like another note. Bb for instance! It would mean the original owner could play a trumpet or clarinet part straight as written and it would harmonise with the rest of the band.

 

If you're playing solo it doesn't matter; if you're playing with an ensemble you have to go up one on the scale to keep in tune; if you're playing along by ear and they say it's in F you play in G, for example, and if you're trying to play sheet music with a group it gets complicated. Unless you get them to do some trumpet stuff, then you're laughing.

[jaimot]

Hi,

My concertina is more or less in tune with itself, but C sounds like Bb and so forth. Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas about this?

thanks for any suggestions,

jaimot

Could well be in Bb; especially a duet. They made them particularly for people who played with brass and woodwind players; 'transposing instruments' whose music is written with middle C actually sounding like another note. Bb for instance! It would mean the original owner could play a trumpet or clarinet part straight as written and it would harmonise with the rest of the band.

 

If you're playing solo it doesn't matter; if you're playing with an ensemble you have to go up one on the scale to keep in tune; if you're playing along by ear and they say it's in F you play in G, for example, and if you're trying to play sheet music with a group it gets complicated. Unless you get them to do some trumpet stuff, then you're laughing.

 

 

 

*****Well, I never suspected this when I bought it. Thank you for writing. Do you think that with a reed overhaul that it could be put in C? It needs tuning work anyway, although, right now, I can use it

[Frank Edgley]

Hi,

My concertina is more or less in tune with itself, but C sounds like Bb and so forth. Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas about this?

thanks for any suggestions,

jaimot

Could well be in Bb; especially a duet. They made them particularly for people who played with brass and woodwind players; 'transposing instruments' whose music is written with middle C actually sounding like another note. Bb for instance! It would mean the original owner could play a trumpet or clarinet part straight as written and it would harmonise with the rest of the band.

 

If you're playing solo it doesn't matter; if you're playing with an ensemble you have to go up one on the scale to keep in tune; if you're playing along by ear and they say it's in F you play in G, for example, and if you're trying to play sheet music with a group it gets complicated. Unless you get them to do some trumpet stuff, then you're laughing.

 

 

 

*****Well, I never suspected this when I bought it. Thank you for writing. Do you think that with a reed overhaul that it could be put in C? It needs tuning work anyway, although, right now, I can use it

This would be a whole step up in pitch. This might not be a good idea, especially with some of the higher reeds. But then, I don't have much experience with duets.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Frank Edgley

[jaimot]

Hi,

My concertina is more or less in tune with itself, but C sounds like Bb and so forth. Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas about this?

thanks for any suggestions,

jaimot

Could well be in Bb; especially a duet. They made them particularly for people who played with brass and woodwind players; 'transposing instruments' whose music is written with middle C actually sounding like another note. Bb for instance! It would mean the original owner could play a trumpet or clarinet part straight as written and it would harmonise with the rest of the band.

 

If you're playing solo it doesn't matter; if you're playing with an ensemble you have to go up one on the scale to keep in tune; if you're playing along by ear and they say it's in F you play in G, for example, and if you're trying to play sheet music with a group it gets complicated. Unless you get them to do some trumpet stuff, then you're laughing.

 

 

 

*****Well, I never suspected this when I bought it. Thank you for writing. Do you think that with a reed overhaul that it could be put in C? It needs tuning work anyway, although, right now, I can use it

This would be a whole step up in pitch. This might not be a good idea, especially with some of the higher reeds. But then, I don't have much experience with duets.

 

****** right, but the buttons are labeled as C but play Bb, for example--which is why this is a surprise to me. Perhaps they can all be moved over to the right place and have some added on at the end? Looks like the Button Box in Massachusetts will have some fun with this one. In the mean while, I will just try and live with this. Thanks for writing!

Edited November 9, 2011 by jaimot

[Dirge]

 

****** right, but the buttons are labeled as C but play Bb, for example--which is why this is a surprise to me. Perhaps they can all be moved over to the right place and have some added on at the end? Looks like the Button Box in Massachusetts will have some fun with this one. In the mean while, I will just try and live with this. Thanks for writing!

 

 

Well the buttons labelled C would play Bb if it's as we said. For that sort of player Bb is the new C.

 

I think Frank's suspicions are spot on. The noted dealer Chris Algar had a Bb edeophone duet that he had more or less killed by trying to tune it up to 'normal'; he told me he'd taken so much off the higher reeds that they were lost. An expensive experiment.

 

I'd get it tuned to modern pitch (still in Bb)and learn to love it if I were you. What is it anyway? Tell us more.

[jaimot]

 

****** right, but the buttons are labeled as C but play Bb, for example--which is why this is a surprise to me. Perhaps they can all be moved over to the right place and have some added on at the end? Looks like the Button Box in Massachusetts will have some fun with this one. In the mean while, I will just try and live with this. Thanks for writing!

 

 

Well the buttons labelled C would play Bb if it's as we said. For that sort of player Bb is the new C.

 

I think Frank's suspicions are spot on. The noted dealer Chris Algar had a Bb edeophone duet that he had more or less killed by trying to tune it up to 'normal'; he told me he'd taken so much off the higher reeds that they were lost. An expensive experiment.

 

I'd get it tuned to modern pitch (still in Bb)and learn to love it if I were you. What is it anyway? Tell us more.

[jaimot]

It is a 46 button Lachenal look-alike, since there is no name on it, anywhere--MacCann Duet. I can see how trying to tune a reed up a whole step would be a disaster but can't someone (who knows what they're doing) just remove them and move them over to the respective note --- with a new one for the top?

[Theo]

It is a 46 button Lachenal look-alike, since there is no name on it, anywhere--MacCann Duet. I can see how trying to tune a reed up a whole step would be a disaster but can't someone (who knows what they're doing) just remove them and move them over to the respective note --- with a new one for the top?

 

I think that might work, and I agree that tuning all the reeds up a whole tone would,be asking for trouble. Moving the reeds could be a bit more work than would be obvious, quite a lot of reeds would be going into a slot that was too large, so there would be skillful work requied to shim those reeds to get a good fit.

 

You might end up paying less, and taking fewer risks by selling this one and buying one in C. There are people who still want transposing instruments like yours.

[Frank Edgley]

It is a 46 button Lachenal look-alike, since there is no name on it, anywhere--MacCann Duet. I can see how trying to tune a reed up a whole step would be a disaster but can't someone (who knows what they're doing) just remove them and move them over to the respective note --- with a new one for the top?

 

I think that might work, and I agree that tuning all the reeds up a whole tone would,be asking for trouble. Moving the reeds could be a bit more work than would be obvious, quite a lot of reeds would be going into a slot that was too large, so there would be skillful work requied to shim those reeds to get a good fit.

 

You might end up paying less, and taking fewer risks by selling this one and buying one in C. There are people who still want transposing instruments like yours.

 

In the past, I have done this (moving reeds) on anglos, but it is a lot of work. I remember on a certain Jeffries instrument that some of the reed frames were too large and some needed shimming, as the progression in size was not consistent. Also, when changing keys there were some notes missing. This could be remedied by repitching some of the reeds, but some reeds needed to be obtained from another source. I'm not sure how this would work with a duet.

[jaimot]

Not sure where the last answer from Theo is here, but the suggestion to sell it seems like a great idea! Perhaps there is really someone out there who wants to play a Bb instrument. Thanks for the suggestion. Don't be surprised if you see my ad on this site before too long!

[jaimot]

I am calling the Button Box people up in Massachusetts this afternoon....see what they say. Thank you all for your ideas and patience. I know about transposing instruments, but never would have suspected that they did this to concertinas!! I want a "normal" one someday, and not soon enough.

 

I will let you all know they say, for curiosity's sake.

cheers,

Jaimot

[Randall Cayford]

Maybe this is just obvious to others but why is everyone concluding that this is a transposing instrument? Wouldn't a possibility be that the instrument is simply tuned to an older (and lower) pitch standard?

 

Or is a whole step farther than would be expected for a different tuning?

[Dirge]

Maybe this is just obvious to others but why is everyone concluding that this is a transposing instrument? Wouldn't a possibility be that the instrument is simply tuned to an older (and lower) pitch standard?

 

Or is a whole step farther than would be expected for a different tuning?

Personally ,as much as anything, because I am taking Jaimot's word that it is fairly clearly Bb and not some halfway; that and that I know that transposing duets are not that uncommon having come across them before, so finding one is quite likely.

[jaimot]

Well, I guess the consensus is yes, a whole step (and some gaps between what's stamped on the button and the actual pitch are even wider an interval than that) implies a Bb instrument, which apparently is a bona fide instrument, as was said, to play along with brass and clarinets, for example. What about bassoon and oboe? They are in C, after all. It is just so consistantly in general, a whole step lower than the stamp on the button that plays the note.

This reminds me all too clearly of when I played clarinet and was so excited to be able to play duets with my mom at the piano and when we started to play --me being about 10 years of age and totally clueless about all this--it was so disheartening to realize that it was going to be a bit more complicated than just looking over her shoulder and playing the tune.

 

Wish I had known that transposing concertinas existed before buying my Bb. Probably I'd have known this had I frequented this website a year earlier!

[SteveS]

If the box is tuned Bb and the reed is stamped C wouldn't that imply that the reed has already been tuned down?

If the 'tina had been manufactured as Bb then wouldn't the reed be stamped Bb and not C.

Would the 'tina then tolerate being tuned back to C?

[Theo]

If the box is tuned Bb and the reed is stamped C wouldn't that imply that the reed has already been tuned down?

If the 'tina had been manufactured as Bb then wouldn't the reed be stamped Bb and not C.

Would the 'tina then tolerate being tuned back to C?

 

My reading of the original post was that it is the buttons that are stamped C but play Bb.

 

Whether it would stand tuning back up depends on how any tuning down was done. If all the reeds have been tip-weighted with solder then yes it would go back up, if the reeds have been tuned down by filing the belly of the reed then probably not.

[RAc]

If the box is tuned Bb and the reed is stamped C wouldn't that imply that the reed has already been tuned down?

If the 'tina had been manufactured as Bb then wouldn't the reed be stamped Bb and not C.

Would the 'tina then tolerate being tuned back to C?

 

My reading of the original post was that it is the buttons that are stamped C but play Bb.

 

Whether it would stand tuning back up depends on how any tuning down was done. If all the reeds have been tip-weighted with solder then yes it would go back up, if the reeds have been tuned down by filing the belly of the reed then probably not.

 

Didn't even know that that was an option, but now that you mention it, yes, makes sense... do you have any ideas about the pros and cons of thickening by solder as opposed to filing the belly? It seems to me as if tip weighting would always be the better option because then you don't lose irrecoverable material; why would one prefer filing over weigthing? (Sorry if that should be a stupid question which it probably is)