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Edgley Concertina Tone


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Ok... I just got back from the Catskills (I was there for the first half of Irish Arts week in East Durham). While I was there I got a chance to listen to some accordion reeded concertinas as well as a late model 50s or 60s vintage Wheatstone. Specifically I was very impressed by the Edgley I listened to (also got to try a tune out on it). Maybe it was just me but it seemed to sound more like a traditional concertina than some of the other accordion reeded concertinas I have tried. I haven't heard all the alternatives, but the others I have heard seemed to sound more like single reeded accordions than concertinas (Not that they aren't beautiful and well made instruments, purely going with sound). The late vintage Wheatstone was nice, but I am not sure it is worth the extra difference in price they normally bring over the Edgley.

 

So is it just me or do the Edgley's really sound more like traditional concertinas than other mid ranged instruments?

 

Thanks,

 

--

Bill

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I was also very impressed with Frank's concertina at last year's Squeeze in. It still bears saying that you should try as many as you can. Tone is very personal and...some would say subjective. I have been listening to and playing accordion-reeded instruments for several years, whenever I can. It is fair to say that every make has its advocates and followers. Ideally you should check them yourself (I know, it isn't easy!). They are all worthy of consideration (including Frank's of course).

 

Try asking two guitar players about favorite brands. You'll get two different answers more often than not!

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This is just a little off thread, but I have been wondering about tone of various instruments. We often speak of the tone of instruments we like. I know that these are subjective, often derived from opportunities we have had in trying them out. I am also aware that the volume of an instrument is often misjudged by the player. Therefore I guess that the tone from the player perspective and the "audience" perspective can be quite different. When judging instrumental tone, I would guess that it is important to consider these factors. How and where one will be playing - for personal enjoyment or for an audience, in one's parlor, outdoors or in a hall. Any one else have thoughts on this subject? If there is interest in this notion, perhaps it should be moved to another thread.

 

To keep it on subject, I am one who also thinks that Frank's instruments are very fine in both craftsmanship and tone.

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I own one of Frank's concertinas and have been very impressed with its tone, volume, and playability.

 

That having been said, can someone enlighten me on the exact difference between an accordion reed and a concertina reed? It seems to me there are only 5 variables that can differentiate the two, to wit:

 

1) Dimensions of the reed

2) Shape of the reed

3) Material

4) Heat treatment

5) Method of mounting to the reed plate

 

Seems that any other difference would be in the reed plate or pan rather than the reed itself. Am I off track?

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In my opinion, the main difference is the shape and dimensions of the reeds. Some people have opined that the aluminum reed frames (or shoes) make a difference, but I don't agree that they are a significant factor. A friend of mine has a Baritone English by Colin Dipper. It has aluminum reed shoes. It sounds great, and I'm sure that Colin wouldn't use them if he thought they would negatively affect the tone. I think that this fallacy is due to the fact that some late vintage (1960s) Wheatstones had poorer response and tone and they had aluminum reed shoes. However, I believe that the poorer response was due to the fact that the reeds in these instruments were poorly made, not the fact they had aluminum frames. The other factor that has been mentioned by some is the hardness of the spring steel. This may be a factor. I know, from years of tuning vintage instruments that certain concertina makes have reeds which did not use the "springiest" steel i.e. certain vintage Lachenals and Wheatstones. But most Jeffries I have worked on have had very hard steel reeds, as well as my two Dippers. So there may be some tone differences in the hardness of reed steel, but these are not a factor in whether the reed is a concertina reed or not. There are other important factors which also affect the tone and response, besides the reeds, although, the quality and design of the reeds is a major factor. My reeds are made by an accordion reed maker, but they are made a bit differently than typical accordion reeds. I do appreciate the positive comments made here by players who own, or have tried one of my instruments.

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...can someone enlighten me on the exact difference between an accordion reed and a concertina reed?

It seems to me there are only 5 variables that can differentiate the two, to wit:

1) Dimensions of the reed

2) Shape of the reed

3) Material

4) Heat treatment

5) Method of mounting to the reed plate

........ 6) Mounted on reed plate vs. mounted on reed frame

........ 7) Individual mounting vs. 2 or more per plate

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"........ 6) Mounted on reed plate vs. mounted on reed frame

........ 7) Individual mounting vs. 2 or more per plate "

 

OK, but again, this is the mounting method, not the reeds themselves. From all I've heard, and consistent with Frank's post, it seems to me that the major discriminator is whether the reed was made by an accordion reed maker. Perhaps it's not so much the reed that gives the concertina the distinctive "barking" sound as it is the design of the instrument and the way the reeds are implemented?

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can someone enlighten me on the exact difference between an accordion reed and a concertina reed?  It seems to me there are only 5 variables that can differentiate the two, to wit:

 

1) Dimensions of the reed

2) Shape of the reed

3) Material

4) Heat treatment

5) Method of mounting to the reed plate

 

Seems that any other difference would be in the reed plate or pan rather than the reed itself.  Am I off track?

Pretty good start there. First off, I would consider what most people call "reeds" to be in reality "reed assemblies" which includes the reed tongue, reedplate and manner of securance between the two. They work together much like a violin and bow.

 

Neither violin nor bow can function alone and both are designed to elicit a certain response and tone. Consider the enormous differences between baroque (early) violins/bows and modern violins/bows. Most people probably can't see or hear much difference, some can but are hard pressed to quantify things, but musicians and aficionados can discern a world of difference.

 

This analogy is very similar to the concertina/accordion reed assembly difference in that concertina reed assemblies (let's call them CRAs?) are like baroque violin/bows: extremely expressive/responsive in the quiet-to-moderate dynamic range and loose finesse above that, and ARAs are like modern violin/bows: great in the moderate-to-loud dynamic range, but as you play softer, the sound becomes hoarse and less controllable.

 

In violin/bows the difference lies mainly in the wieght/mass difference/ distribution and different tensile (string, body and hair) design/construction. Same with concertina/accordion reed assemblies.

 

I would probably lump your first 4 variables into a single group, probably called "Reed Tongue Properties" which includes the dimensional properties of length, width (which when varied we call "taper"), thickness (which when varied we call "profile") and set (how the tongue is physically deformed from being perfectly flat along the bottom) and material properties. All together they mainly affect a reed tongue's stiffness and minorly its tone.

 

Well, other things as too (durability, machinability, price, etc.)....

 

Both concertina and accordion reed tongues have been made in many proportions and of many types of metals and processes for stiffness so it's impossible to differentiate between concertina/accordion reeds based on any *particular* property - but rather on the *aggregate* properties that enhances what response is desired. Same goes for harmonica reeds or harmonium reeds....

 

Simply speaking, accordion reeds are typically stiffer than concertina reeds are.

 

The mounting to the reed plate doesn't really matter toward tone or response but is more a choice reflecting dismoutability, ease of installation, and cost. Both concertina and accordion reed tongues have been secured with strap/bolts and rivets.

 

The reedplate and reedpan is the other half of the assembly which is where it gets quite interesting as there's a massive difference between CRAs and ARAs.

 

ARAs typically have deep reedplates with parallel vents (the hole through which the reed tongue swings). The deeper the plate and closer the vent stays to the reed tongue forces the reed to travel further before it "dumps" its air load to swing back (to vibrate, cause sound). This forces a considerable initial stress into the reed which enables great volume of sound (loudness) and makes better certain controlability issues around starting and loudness.

 

The downside to this design/construction is that it is difficult to have minimal tolerances between the tongue and side of the vent for such a long distance (so there is a practical minimum efficiency), and that due to the reed not being able to start until it reaches the dumping point, it is harder to start under little pressure - and once it is started, it is difficult to play under little pressure (softly). I've been calling ARAs "high pressure" reeds (I don't think I made that up but I can't remember who/when I first heard that term used to describe the differences).

 

CRAs typically have shallower reedplates which have non-plumb sides to their vents. The sides of the vent is typically splayed from having extremely close tolerances at the reed tongue side (about .0015") and widens out on the other side. Besides picking up some efficiency by the close window tolerance, these reeds will be more expressive at lower air pressures (and hence play at moderate volume/loudness well) because the plate is thinner.

 

Now it gets really interesting.... The vent splay is different for different pitches (or more exactly: length or tongue vs reedplate thickness). A greater splay will in effect make a deep reedplate appear to be shallower. Which when followed out results in the shorter/higher reed tongues having more splay and the lower ones less.

 

I've been using the word "splay" as if this vent shape were a simple trapezoid in cross section. When it is we call it a "bevel", which can vary from plumb to about 8 or 9 degrees from plumb. Better yet is to shape the vent exit with a secondary bevel which will enable one to control the reed tongue's dynamics better... and a radiused outlet is even better...

 

But concertina reedplates are NOT as deep as accordion ones are, so there is no way they should be able to play anywhere nearly as loudly. Here's where the reedpan comes into play as the slot in the reedpan acts as an extension to the reedplate vent which together makes it about the same depth as ARAs are.

 

An asside here to note that Jeffries reedpans are considerably thicker than other maker's reedpans - and Jeffries are markedly louder too. This is no coincidence!

 

Hmmm.... Now I've seemed to have blathered on and lost my train of thought.... Differences between CRAs and ARAs.... Argh! There's a lot more going one here that one would think though mainly boiling down to aggregate choices polarizing things into low (concertina) and high (accordion) pressure reed assemblies....

 

Time for me to stop and get some lunch.

 

I'd better end with a disclaimer that this is MY view of MY experiences (stemmed and tempered from many knowledgeable sources). I look forward to hearing other people's thoughts on this. Maybe this thread should be moved to the "Construction and Repair" forum?

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Follow up question:

 

If a reed were to be removed from it's plate or frame and handed to an expert, could he tell if it was an accordion reed or concertina reed?

 

There are an infinite number of ways to produce a given note with a reed by varying the length, width, thickness, contour, elastic modulus, and density of the reed material. Are accordion reeds typically larger and thicker?

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Perhaps it's not so much the reed that gives the concertina the distinctive "barking" sound as it is the design of the instrument and the way the reeds are implemented?

Looks like I missed a lot of posts in the time it took me to write mine. Sorry for the duplications and what now seems to be oblique meanderings.

 

The distinctive "barking" sound is a characteristic of the onset of the reed tongue ramping up to speak. This seems to be a combination of reed tongue springiness and the vent properties (mainly shape/size).

 

Frank had touched upon reed tongue "springiness" too, which incorporates hardness, stiffness, moment, mass, etc. There are so many property variables there which independently (and conglomerately) affect springiness.

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  • 3 weeks later...

So, theoretically speaking(did I spell that right?), we can take a Bastari, or Stagi, for example, and take a jewelers file to the reed plate, and make it play and sound more like an English made instrument? Just an idea, I like it!

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There has been so much said since my last post on this subject that it's hard to know where to start. Regarding what Richard has said about the "splay" on concertina reeds, there is a different design principal with accordion-style reeds which achieves a similar effect. The sides of concertina reeds are usually more parallel than accordion reeds. Therefore, when they vibrate (or move up & down though the slot), a "splay" helps to dump the air more efficiently. However, when viewed from the top, the tongue of an accordion-style reed is much more tapered from rivet end to tip. Therefore, when the accordion-style reed moves downward through the slot it does so through an arc and the distance from the edge of the reed and the edge of the slot increases. I believe this is how the accordion-type reed achieves a similar effect of dumping air. I would caution against the general comment that concertina reeds are made with closer tolerances tham accordion-style reeds. I think that would depend on the make and model and vintage of the instrument. Some vintage concertinas are outstanding in this regard (Jeffries, Crabbs and some Wheatstones), but most (and Lachenal made around 200,000 as well as some 1960s model Wheatstones) anglo concertinas made with concertina reeds that I have seen over the past 20+ years do not seem to have the tolerances of the very best quality hand-made accordion-type reeds made today, let alone the quality of the spring steel. I would invite anyone at the Squeeze-in to try my two demo models (one C/G, one G/D). They should compare very favourably with vintage Lachenals and many Wheatstones with regards to reed sensitivity. Keep in mind that I am speaking only of anglos, NOT aeolas and edeophones, and not Dippers or concertinas of that ilk. Anglos are a different beast in that they must have reeds robust enough to play without stalling through "violent" changes of air pressure as the bellows is moved in and out.:)

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I am speaking only of anglos, NOT aeolas and edeophones, and not Dippers or concertinas of that ilk.  Anglos are a different beast in that they must have reeds robust enough to play without stalling through "violent" changes of air pressure as the bellows is moved in and out.

Frank, I think some clarification is needed.

You may be saying that you're not comparing your own instruments to "aeolas and edeophones, ... Dippers or concertinas of that ilk," but people should not get the impression that those instruments are in contrast to anglos. I have seen both Æolas and Edeophones which are anglos, and I believe that the majority of Dippers are anglos. In my experience, they are all more "robust" than the "average" Lachenal anglo.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Clarification: My comments did not include Jeffries, earlier Wheatstone anglos most Crabbs, Dippers and concertinas of that ilk. As far as edeophone anglos and aeola anglos there were VERY few made and I have only played one - an edeophone, and these are also not included in my comments. My comments also did not deal with English or duet concertinas - only Lachenal anglos, and 1950's & 60's vintage Wheatstone anglos, for the most part, but not necessarily exclusively. These concertinas make up most of the anglos ever made and most of the anglos available today, and are the instruments whose reeds (concertina reeds) are not up to the very best modern Italian reeds in terms of sensitivity. Tone characteristics are a different matter, but that also can be manipulated to produce a concertina sound. :)

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