Trying to define a beginner self-taught method...

[John D]

I've been following this thread with some interest .. I purchased an Edgley C/G a few months ago and I don't use any of these notations at all! I was able to find a local teacher (of ITM, so that's what I'm learning at least at first ) and I've had musical training back in school so I've been able to just refer to buttons by note and row (and sometimes side) without very much confusion ... I do like Morris tunes and would eventually like to learn that style as well, and that seems to pose a much larger problem as far as notation (I've not found any tunes that show more than the melody line) .. I guess I'll find someone to work on that with next year (Jody lives close by!)

 

Hiya Zeke and thanks for contributing, of course you are luckier than me as you have a teacher helping you, and that's a big difference... you say to have no problem to refer to buttons by notes but how do you define the best way to play a scale? Does your teacher give you the fingerings or do you have to find them by yourself? For instance how many ways to play a scale of G do you know and how many do you practice? There is a very interesting thread initiated by Alan Day about the "all on the push" and "all on the pull" scales... How do you deal with the F# in the scale of D? or the C# in the same scale as it's not always pulled on many concertinas? Don't you think it would be easier to have (for free) some sheet or a file giving you these examples and letting you practising them quietly in front of the screen? I don't say staying stuck to the score, but at least, during the learning stage, having a visual support?

 

Have a nice day! (it's early sunny morning over here!! )

RB

 

My teacher typically gives me 2-3 new tunes every visit .. on the following visit I'm expected to have them pretty well committed to memory (including finger memory). Then she goes through and adds ornamentations, which almost always results in having to modify the fingerings to accommodate. As far as scales, I'm mostly concentrating on D these days, and I try and just play scales and arpeggios a bit each day with as much variation in fingering as possible. I totally ignore the row designations for the most part, and play around with the available notes until I find something that flows and feels right.

 

As far as D scale .. I pick up the F# from the G row, the C# is a bit more challenging as I only have one on my box (I'm getting to the point where I might talk to Frank about obtaining Jeffries-layout reeds for the first two accidentals on the right side) .. so on the bottom end I might grab the D and F# from the G row, the E,G and A from the C row, then back to G row for B, the one and only C#, and the final D on G row push (left) or C row pull (right). When I'm practicing I'll mix it up randomly .. it seems to help quite a bit when looking at new tunes as I can run through various options until I find one that "feels" right ..

 

John D

[Raide Brest]

My teacher typically gives me 2-3 new tunes every visit .. on the following visit I'm expected to have them pretty well committed to memory (including finger memory). Then she goes through and adds ornamentations, which almost always results in having to modify the fingerings to accommodate. As far as scales, I'm mostly concentrating on D these days, and I try and just play scales and arpeggios a bit each day with as much variation in fingering as possible. I totally ignore the row designations for the most part, and play around with the available notes until I find something that flows and feels right.

 

Hi John, thanks for depicting your way to progress. In what you call "something that flows and feels right" do you pay any attention to "chopping" for instance or do you go straight ahead without taking care of basic fingerings techniques? ("Chopping is when you use the same finger to hit two buttons one after the other" definition by David Levine)

 

Have a nice day! RB

[John D]

My teacher typically gives me 2-3 new tunes every visit .. on the following visit I'm expected to have them pretty well committed to memory (including finger memory). Then she goes through and adds ornamentations, which almost always results in having to modify the fingerings to accommodate. As far as scales, I'm mostly concentrating on D these days, and I try and just play scales and arpeggios a bit each day with as much variation in fingering as possible. I totally ignore the row designations for the most part, and play around with the available notes until I find something that flows and feels right.

 

Hi John, thanks for depicting your way to progress. In what you call "something that flows and feels right" do you pay any attention to "chopping" for instance or do you go straight ahead without taking care of basic fingerings techniques? ("Chopping is when you use the same finger to hit two buttons one after the other" definition by David Levine)

 

Have a nice day! RB

 

I definitely avoid chopping (and haven't found the need on any tune I've worked on so far) .. that's what I mean by "flow". The only place it comes up regularly is when playing in D, where the right-hand B in the C row becomes more or less useless (since my only C# in that octave is push on the right side), I use the left side B in the G row virtually all the time. Of course I've only learned a dozen or so tunes so my universe of experience is pretty small

[Jody Kruskal]

And that's a very important thing to consider: Different notation systems are "best" suited to different mental models of how the keyboard is to be used. If you have decided in advance how you intend to use the instrument (e.g., melody-only "Irish style"), then you may find one particular notation system (1-5 in the left hand and 6-10 in the right) to be more "intuitive" than another, though someone who intends a different use (e.g., playing melody mainly in the right hand against chords in the left hand, sometimes called "English style") would find a different notation (1-10 in each hand) more "reasonable". And that's a two-way street. For those who haven't chosen a style in advance, each notation system may act to direct them toward a particular style.

 

There's no doubt in my mind, though that these different views of the Anglo will affect your approach to playing it.

In fact, I suspect that running the 1-10 sequence between the hands tends to encourage an along-the-row mindset, as opposed to "cross-row", at least in some people.

 

And all these systems based on multiples of 5 or 10 tend to break down when dealing with anglos that have more than 30 buttons, since (with rare exceptions) they have at least some rows that are 6 or even 7 buttons wide. But I doubt that many folks start with such an instrument, and by the time they begin exploring such a beast they should be well past needing to identify buttons individually by "number".

 

I've been following this thread with some interest .. I purchased an Edgley C/G a few months ago and I don't use any of these notations at all! I was able to find a local teacher (of ITM, so that's what I'm learning at least at first ) and I've had musical training back in school so I've been able to just refer to buttons by note and row (and sometimes side) without very much confusion ... I do like Morris tunes and would eventually like to learn that style as well, and that seems to pose a much larger problem as far as notation (I've not found any tunes that show more than the melody line) .. I guess I'll find someone to work on that with next year (Jody lives close by!)

 

 

Hi Zeke,

 

I would be happy to work with you. Some folks like tab and some prefer dots, some like charts or graphic fingering pictures. I generate paper and scores based on all of these systems and hybrids that combine several systems as well. For beginners, some take to one system or another, but for me, I prefer no written material at all as I think in terms of sounds and physical patterns that are connected in some deep place in my brain that seems quite visual but in an internal sort of way. The written stuff on paper, though helpful and even essential for awhile, just gets in the way very quickly.

 

I think that the concertina, Anglo at least, requires so much to run on automatic that there is very little brain space left for processing, if you get my drift.

[John D]

And that's a very important thing to consider: Different notation systems are "best" suited to different mental models of how the keyboard is to be used. If you have decided in advance how you intend to use the instrument (e.g., melody-only "Irish style"), then you may find one particular notation system (1-5 in the left hand and 6-10 in the right) to be more "intuitive" than another, though someone who intends a different use (e.g., playing melody mainly in the right hand against chords in the left hand, sometimes called "English style") would find a different notation (1-10 in each hand) more "reasonable". And that's a two-way street. For those who haven't chosen a style in advance, each notation system may act to direct them toward a particular style.

 

There's no doubt in my mind, though that these different views of the Anglo will affect your approach to playing it.

In fact, I suspect that running the 1-10 sequence between the hands tends to encourage an along-the-row mindset, as opposed to "cross-row", at least in some people.

 

And all these systems based on multiples of 5 or 10 tend to break down when dealing with anglos that have more than 30 buttons, since (with rare exceptions) they have at least some rows that are 6 or even 7 buttons wide. But I doubt that many folks start with such an instrument, and by the time they begin exploring such a beast they should be well past needing to identify buttons individually by "number".

 

I've been following this thread with some interest .. I purchased an Edgley C/G a few months ago and I don't use any of these notations at all! I was able to find a local teacher (of ITM, so that's what I'm learning at least at first ) and I've had musical training back in school so I've been able to just refer to buttons by note and row (and sometimes side) without very much confusion ... I do like Morris tunes and would eventually like to learn that style as well, and that seems to pose a much larger problem as far as notation (I've not found any tunes that show more than the melody line) .. I guess I'll find someone to work on that with next year (Jody lives close by!)

 

 

Hi Zeke,

 

I would be happy to work with you. Some folks like tab and some prefer dots, some like charts or graphic fingering pictures. I generate paper and scores based on all of these systems and hybrids that combine several systems as well. For beginners, some take to one system or another, but for me, I prefer no written material at all as I think in terms of sounds and physical patterns that are connected in some deep place in my brain that seems quite visual but in an internal sort of way. The written stuff on paper, though helpful and even essential for awhile, just gets in the way very quickly.

 

I think that the concertina, Anglo at least, requires so much to run on automatic that there is very little brain space left for processing, if you get my drift.

 

Yep, I agree on the "automatic" .. as I said in my first reply, I only use the chart until the tune is in my head

 

I'll be in contact probably later this year, I'm currently not playing so much as I've got a ruptured disc in my neck that's making my left hand go to numb ..

[gcoover]

I should mention I also find it quite handy to use a color chart showing all the buttons and notes, similar to the one found here on concertina.net but with colors re-arranged (for example, all the "A's" are the same color with but different shading for each octave). I've also changed the letters to coincide with ABC notation in case I ever manage to learn how to read it directly.

 

This chart is invaluable when learning a tune as it graphically shows where alternate notes are and aren't. After a bit of trial and error, I then use this to determine what buttons to use when notating a tune to learn. I'm not quite sure how a computer program could automatically determine the best note to tab since there are so many alternates giving better phrasing and better fingering.

 

As for notation systems that try to tell you which finger to use where - way too much trouble, and more annoying than effective. The choices are pretty limited anyway and not that hard to figure out.

 

This all sounds a bit complicated but it's not. Notation systems should be simple, uncluttered, intuitive - that's what gets the job done. Along with an obsessive amount of repetition and practice!

 

Gary

[Anglo-Irishman]

Notation systems should be simple, uncluttered, intuitive - that's what gets the job done. Along with an obsessive amount of repetition and practice!

 

Gary,

 

No!

 

Instruments should be "simple, uncluttered, intuitive" - then we wouldn't need tabs, dots or anything!

 

I agree with you about repetition and practice, though!

 

Cheers,

John

[dougj]

I just got my 1st concertina about a month ago. My background is stringed instruments (guitar, banjo, mandolin). I also came up with my own method of notation. The bottom row is the 'G' row, the middle row is the 'C' row and the top row is the 'X' row. The columns are numbered 1 thru 10. Over each note on the score, I put a letter and a number. Upper case is push and lower cased is pull. For example, C6 is a C note; c6 is a B note. I use Tabledit to put it together. I've attached a chart and a sample song.30buttonconcertina.docIrish Washerwoman.pdf

[gcoover]

Doug, this is pretty much the same as the system used by Simon Wells for his Anglo tutor. I tried Simon's system at first, but found it much quicker for my brain and fingers to locate and learn each button by only one number instead of both a letter and a number. But, if it works for you, then that is great!

 

Gary

[Jody Kruskal]

And that's a very important thing to consider: Different notation systems are "best" suited to different mental models of how the keyboard is to be used. If you have decided in advance how you intend to use the instrument (e.g., melody-only "Irish style"), then you may find one particular notation system (1-5 in the left hand and 6-10 in the right) to be more "intuitive" than another, though someone who intends a different use (e.g., playing melody mainly in the right hand against chords in the left hand, sometimes called "English style") would find a different notation (1-10 in each hand) more "reasonable". And that's a two-way street. For those who haven't chosen a style in advance, each notation system may act to direct them toward a particular style.

 

There's no doubt in my mind, though that these different views of the Anglo will affect your approach to playing it.

In fact, I suspect that running the 1-10 sequence between the hands tends to encourage an along-the-row mindset, as opposed to "cross-row", at least in some people.

 

And all these systems based on multiples of 5 or 10 tend to break down when dealing with anglos that have more than 30 buttons, since (with rare exceptions) they have at least some rows that are 6 or even 7 buttons wide. But I doubt that many folks start with such an instrument, and by the time they begin exploring such a beast they should be well past needing to identify buttons individually by "number".

 

 

I've been following this thread with some interest .. I purchased an Edgley C/G a few months ago and I don't use any of these notations at all! I was able to find a local teacher (of ITM, so that's what I'm learning at least at first ) and I've had musical training back in school so I've been able to just refer to buttons by note and row (and sometimes side) without very much confusion ... I do like Morris tunes and would eventually like to learn that style as well, and that seems to pose a much larger problem as far as notation (I've not found any tunes that show more than the melody line) .. I guess I'll find someone to work on that with next year (Jody lives close by!)

 

 

Hi Zeke,

 

I would be happy to work with you at some point, just give me a buzz.

 

As for me, like you, as a beginner I used no dots or tab of any kind and relied on my ear only. Though I do read standard music notation, it seemed to me that the amount of information required to notate a complex Anglo arrangement that included direction, both hands and which button to use to play the melody and harmony was just too much to look at. BTW, I do not play much Irish trad. I started on Morris tunes and now play mostly American fiddle tunes and song accompaniments.

 

Now that I teach the Anglo I've found it requires that I make papers that reflect my playing style and so I've come full circle and have generated a few score/tab arrangements the do show what I'm playing. I hate making these things. It is so labor intensive. Reading them must also be close to impossible for most players. There is too much information on the page but I'm afraid that all of the information is essential to play what I'm playing. It's a dilemma.

 

Here is an example of how I solved the notation problem for one puzzle solution that completely describes my playing style. Just go to the bottom of this page and download the file for your Anglo instrument. http://jodykruskal.com/tune_of_the_month/february_09.html

 

A better solution I've come up with for my students is to make scores that show the melody only with the buttons and direction indicated plus the chord symbols on top of the staff. Melody is mostly played by the right hand with only a few exceptions indicated by the letter L. (I subscribe to the system using 1-5 for the middle row, 6-10 for the near row and 1a-5a for the outer accidental row, same in both hands. This is just a convention and I could use a different system but this one makes the best sense for my style of play.) Then in addition, I provide a chord chart so that the fingering patterns for the left hand are provided. When reading this kind of score the direction of the (mostly) right hand melody note determines the fingering for the left hand harmony part and so saves the eyes from information overload. Here is an example of that but you need the left hand fingering chart to complete the picture.

Black Nag.pdf

Edited August 5, 2011 by Jody Kruskal

[Raide Brest]

I just got my 1st concertina about a month ago. My background is stringed instruments (guitar, banjo, mandolin). I also came up with my own method of notation. The bottom row is the 'G' row, the middle row is the 'C' row and the top row is the 'X' row. The columns are numbered 1 thru 10. Over each note on the score, I put a letter and a number. Upper case is push and lower cased is pull. For example, C6 is a C note; c6 is a B note. I use Tabledit to put it together. I've attached a chart and a sample song.30buttonconcertina.docIrish Washerwoman.pdf

 

Hi Doug and thanks for contributing, with Matthieu we started from Simon Wells notation too, as a Tabledit user you can have a full anglo concertina support since version 2.69-e6 and the current demo version if you are not a registered user. You may edit the basic layout used in "diato_Reder.dat" and to see the keyboard click "Display" and tick "Fingerboard" I re-wrote your score in "along the row" style you used and re-wrote it in "cross-row" style I prefer (see the .TEF in the attachment below) there are already some tablatures on Freetabs, feel free to add some

 

Have a nice day and keep on!!

 

RB

Irish washerwoman.zip