Anglo-Irishman Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Stabilizing the connection by the thumb is the right way to go and adding a thumb strap on Anglos and Duets would be logical. Ardie, A right thumb-strap on an anglo is no-go because of the air button, and I believe that most players (certainly myself) prop the left end on the knee, so stability is OK there, and a thumb-strap wouldn't add any value. With the Crane, which has the same width of keyboard as an anglo (5 buttons), the same applies, especially when it's one like mine with an air button on the right (which I do like to use occasionally). Dirge has already covered the Maccann. I also agree with Dirge that melodies can be played guickly on a duet, too, but this leaves one hand unemployed. For a duettist (and probably most angloists except the ITM lot), playing single-line melody, whether fast or slow, is just too trivial to do all the time. That's what ECs are for, isn't it? Cheers, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
symon Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Ouch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 ...playing single-line melody, whether fast or slow, is just too trivial to do all the time. That's what ECs are for, isn't it? No, no... that's what anglos and duets are for. The English is capable of much richer arrangements! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 ...playing single-line melody, whether fast or slow, is just too trivial to do all the time. That's what ECs are for, isn't it? No, no... that's what anglos and duets are for. The English is capable of much richer arrangements! Tut! Tut! Tut ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 (edited) [Heh. Yeah, but tenor-trebles are only moderately rare, while plain tenors are veritable hen's teeth]....well, perhaps one will have to be flexible on that point... maccanns: i've been reading up on duets, but the party line seems to be these instruments are not as good as ec for primarily single=note melody playing, which is too bad. somebody needs to design a unisonoric concertina with button actio laid out and positioned to be held and articulated like an anglo, that is brilliant for melody playing. i had been interested in maccann or jeffries, because i already play anglo and those two seem to make more sense to me.....but i see that hayden has the most notes common to both sides, which seems to me what you'd want for trying to use one for mainly melodic playing. a duet, but not for duet-style. you can do it on bandoneons. much of piazzolla's composed work is essentially melody playing.....but bandoneons have just about a whole chromatic octive repeated on both sides.....but the whole hayden-availability business gives me a headache. also, i know cba some and understand that note-pattern idea, but i have questions as to whether this is optimal for doing runs on a concertina, where your hand is not traveling up and down using all five fingers. i was thinking jeffries or maccann, but pointless if it's not optimal for what i want to play..... so ec it is. plus, the whole alternating sides thing sounds like a kick. the ground has already been traveled in threaeds here, i see, but it has to be, a standard ec 48 with some kind of adapted holding setup, or a re-designed ec with button layout and positioning such that you can hold and play it duet or anglo style. the accordion tech wizard in my locality was a car mechanic and customized hotrod wizard before mastering accordion work. and he has a sorcerer's apprentice who is something of a self-taught engineer as well as a player. i bet if i took them an ec 48, showed them how i want to hold it and asked then to make me a setup, they would consider it fun as well as work.... [...playing single-line melody, whether fast or slow, is just too trivial to do all the time]...hey, that's what i was gonna say about YOUR playing preferences! what a coincidence! morse reeds: dissatisfaction with the responsiveness of morse reeds has been expressed more than once, usually in discussions relating to the ceili anglo. it's not an unheard of point. (absence of dissatisfaction therewith has ALSO been expressed--i'm just saying, the issue has come up, and my comment was not out of left field.) mr. morse himself joined in one of these discussions and basically conceded he was aware that the reed response was not ideal for fast irish dance playing and even contrasted the morse instruments with the edgeleys in this one regard. i have a ceili and do find the reeds resistant and slow to speak. doing recent research on ecs, i encountered a comment somewhere, not sure if it was here or mudcat or melodeon.hnet, on the albion english where the person said they found the reeds slow to respond, so i'm assuming this is the same situation as the reeds in my mid-2000s ceili. i love the button action on my ceili, really like the tone of the morse instruments, have happily purchased other instruments from bb and hope and plan to do the same again as to other instruments in the future. that new geordie, which you can get as a tenor, sounds like a great configuration, but.....$2650 is just too big an investmen unless there has been a hand-type reed upgrade.... Edited July 12, 2011 by ceemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 maccanns: i've been reading up on duets, but the party line seems to be these instruments are not as good as ec for primarily single=note melody playing, which is too bad. If you can find someone who actually knows this from experience rather than theorising I'll be surprised. I'm certainly not sure. But EC folk like to believe (and say) that playing LRLR is going to be faster; maybe it ultimately is, but pianists, woodwind players, fiddlers, whoever, don't seem to be held back by using one hand, and I've never thought "Can't learn that, it's too fast". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 (edited) maccanns: i've been reading up on duets, but the party line seems to be these instruments are not as good as ec for primarily single=note melody playing, which is too bad. If you can find someone who actually knows this from experience rather than theorising I'll be surprised. I'm certainly not sure. But EC folk like to believe (and say) that playing LRLR is going to be faster; maybe it ultimately is, but pianists, woodwind players, fiddlers, whoever, don't seem to be held back by using one hand, and I've never thought "Can't learn that, it's too fast". My first dabblings on the Maccann (coming from the EC) did suggest that it would be a good deal slower but I don't think that anymore.It was just me being new to it. Not that I have the Maccann up to the same speed by any means after a couple of months, however, glimpses of the potential are showing through. There are those who post on Cnet to the effect that single note playing is for 'babies'and to play with chords is the real way to go. In many ways I would agree with this but if one is playing reasonably fast dance music ( as in Jigs and reels) on either Anglo or EC then there is very little space/time/finger agility left for adding much in the way of accompaniment. Maybe this is possible on a Duet but I have yet to hear anyone doing it. Alexander Prince shows us how rapid the Maccann can be though. Ceemonster, I get the impression that you wish to re-invent the wheel somewhat... well good luck to you... it is going to be difficult, even with a relatively new type of instrument like the Concertina, to make significant improvements to something that went through a long period of development over a century ago. My wife has suggested that someone could come up with a Duet that was push-pull on the right and double action on the left . The idea is that the range could be considerably increased for the melody side but the chordal strengths of any the Duets systems could be available on the left hand...... Hmmmm is it worth thinking about ? Edited July 12, 2011 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 maccanns: i've been reading up on duets, but the party line seems to be these instruments are not as good as ec for primarily single=note melody playing, which is too bad. If you can find someone who actually knows this from experience rather than theorising I'll be surprised. I'm certainly not sure. Exactly! I don't have all-encompassing expertise, but I do have experience. The English is my main squeeze, and probably always will be. It suits me. But I also play somewhat on both the anglo and the Crane duet, and have even mucked about with the Maccann. And yes, I've tried single-line melody playing on all of them. I'm not as quick on the others as on the English, but as I progress I'm increasingly convinced that any inadequacy is due to lack of practice time on my part and NOT any inherent speed deficiency of the other instruments. (And I'm certain that duets are inherently at least as fast as anglos.) I really think ceemonster should be at least as critical of his "party line" sources as he is of the instruments themselves. But EC folk like to believe (and say) that playing LRLR is going to be faster... Well, some of them do. I'm not so dogmatic. But what if it is, if you can precisely coordinate the alternation? Does it matter? If the speed difference is (to make up some numbers) between 5 msec and 7 msec while the minimum interval between notes (even grace notes) is 10 msec, it should make no musical difference. More to the point, very few if any melodies involve long strings of strict L-R alternation on the English. What is relevant is the ease or difficulty of individual fingering patterns for each phrase of whatever piece is being played, and the "best" instrument in that regard will differ from tune to tune. Comparing notes with others, I'd say that it even depends on the shape of the players' hands. What is a comfortable configuration for someone with long fingers may be difficult for someone with short fingers, and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 My wife has suggested that someone could come up with a Duet that was push-pull on the right and double action on the left . The idea is that the range could be considerably increased for the melody side but the chordal strengths of any the Duets systems could be available on the left hand...... Wouldn't help ceemonster, since he's already said that he only wants the instrument for single-line melodies. And for others? Well, unless you have all the notes available in both directions, there will be some note combinations ("chords") that won't be possible. And if you do have every note in both directions, why not on the same button? Now to ceemonster: If you're really intent on having a custom-built concertina, I think you should take a serious look at the Linton system. Like the English, it has the scale split between the two hands, so I think you might expect about 50% hand-to-hand alternation. But like anglos and duets, it already has the hand strap as part of its design. The English layout is long and narrow, while that of the Linton is comparatively short and wide, more like that of a many-button anglo. If you try a full 48-button English layout with the hand strap you may or may not find it difficult to reach the higher notes, but there should definitely be less need to "stretch" in playing the Linton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 (edited) [i really think ceemonster should be at least as critical of his "party line" sources as he is of the instruments themselves.] i'm not being critical of duets. i'm fascinated by them and would love to have one as a unisonoric concertina, provided what you see again. and again. and again, on this site regarding them being less optimal than the ec for single-lkine melody playing, proved to be inaccurate. whether you call it a party line or call it conventional wisdom, it has recurred in duet/ec discussions here. additionally as it happens, a very nice person from this site emailed me privately during the discussion on this thread to talk about some of the points being discussed, and when i mentioned being open to considering duets, the person replied, nope. won't work for fast single-melody playing. and i'm not being critical of that person either. i've thoroughly enjoyed our correspondence. i'm just saying, it is said and it is said frequently, that what they really work for, is melody-on-right-bass-chords-on-the-left arrangements, versus the EC working better for melody playing. it's not a criticism. this is what's out there. it may be just a case of, people not having accurate information on everything duets can do, or it may be that this conventional wisdom is true. the record is unclear. more will be revealed..... Edited July 12, 2011 by ceemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 [Now to ceemonster: If you're really intent on having a custom-built concertina, I think you should take a serious look at the Linton system. Like the English, it has the scale split between the two hands, so I think you might expect about 50% hand-to-hand alternation. But like anglos and duets, it already has the hand strap as part of its design.] the game is afoot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 (edited) [There are those who post on Cnet to the effect that single note playing is for 'babies'and to play with chords is the real way to go] it worked very well for miles davis. it works very well for martin hayes. it worked very well for astor piazzola, as it does for richard galliano, both of whom played on and composed (present tense in galliano's case) largely single-line melody music for instruments with chording and contrapuntal capacities that make the concertina look like a toy. not to mention, entire bodies of extremely complex and sophisticated world music with their own classical traditions, in which the music is largely modal/melodic. my favorite artists of traditional irish concertina and accordion playing also express the music this way, including some very sophisticated contemporary "cross-row" concertina players, and there are those in the music who think the chordal trend on itm concertina is a downhill direction for the aesthetics of the music. i'm not saying it is or isn't, i'm saying, melodic playing has an elegance and beauty that does not need to be justified or defended, and it is provincial to assume that more complex is better. it is just different. lately i've been listening to the gorgeous itm record by PA player alan kelly and his brother john kelly on flute, and you barely hear a chord on the whole thing. that is actually what gives the record its beauty. the dichotomy of busier-is-better, or, more-layers-of-notes-are-better, is what is for babies.... Edited July 12, 2011 by ceemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boney Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 melodic playing has an elegance and beauty that does not need to be justified or defended I agree. I find playing single-line melodies leaves much more room for me to listen, use subtle control of dynamics and articulation, or play faster. I like playing chordally, or with bass/chord accompaniment, or single-line -- each brings out a different sound, and each has different demands. By the way, I play a Wicki (Hayden) duet, although I played Anglo for several years before that. I find I can play the duet at least as fast as I ever played the Anglo. Perhaps I shall record a simple clip of fast melody-only playing. I think in an expert's hands, an English can probably play single-line melodies (or somewhat embellished ones) faster than a duet. But I think a bigger difference is the physical connection to the instrument - the strap/handbar arrangement gives a more physical, but less subtle connection to the instrument. It allows for quicker reversals, and more "punch" in your playing. The connection to an English seems to allow a more direct feel, and more ability to move the instrument around, or play standing, which can be used to create subtle dynamics or tone color changes. I'm sure you could do what you want on either system, the differences are not constraints, just tendencies. The English certainly gives more range in a smaller package, but a duet may give more options down the road if you want to attack other styles as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) well, then, what kind of unisonoric is grey larsen playing here and holding like an anglo??? hmmm. i guess it must be an anglo. i was reading he plays ec and ac both, and thought the buttons on this looked like straighter rows than an anglo, but perhaps the multi-sides are giving me optical willies. it is very pretty playing... Edited July 13, 2011 by ceemonster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) well, then, what kind of unisonoric is grey larsen playing here and holding like an anglo??? hmmm. i guess it must be an anglo. i was reading he plays ec and ac both, and thought the buttons on this looked like straighter rows than an anglo, but perhaps the multi-sides are giving me optical willies. it is very pretty playing... An Anglo and very nicely played too. Geoff. Edited July 13, 2011 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 well, then, what kind of unisonoric is grey larsen playing here and holding like an anglo??? hmmm. i guess it must be an anglo. i was reading he plays ec and ac both, and thought the buttons on this looked like straighter rows than an anglo, but perhaps the multi-sides are giving me optical willies. it is very pretty playing... An Anglo and very nicely played too. I believe that's one of the Wheatstone "Edeophones", 40-button in D/A. And the tune seems to have one sharp, which means the fingering would be like playing a C/G in the key of F. Beautifully done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglo-Irishman Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) well, then, what kind of unisonoric is grey larsen playing here and holding like an anglo??? hmmm. i guess it must be an anglo. i was reading he plays ec and ac both, and thought the buttons on this looked like straighter rows than an anglo, but perhaps the multi-sides are giving me optical willies. it is very pretty playing... "Pretty" is an understatement! Here we have two musicians bringing out the best in their respective instruments. And bringing out the best in the combination of instruments - notice how they keep eye contact all the time. To my mind, the Anglo (which it definitely is) is being used here for what it's best at - leading and accompanying. I think this shows that the discussion about whether fast melody playing or easy chording is more important in a concertina is irrelevant. The concertina can do both, and as concertina players we should stive to be able to make it do both. For the past 20 years, I've been playing the concertina in a folk group, sometimes accompanying the fiddle, sometimes being accompanied by guitar and double bass, sometimes playing harmonised solos, sometimes switching roles within one piece. I play an Anglo. Works very well in all roles, with the proviso that I'm limited to a few keys - but then, so are the fiddler and the guitarist! If I'd been playing the Crane duet as long as I've been playing the Anglo, I could well imagine using it in this kind of multi-role context. But I took up the Crane only recently to open up more keys (typically, for voice accompaniment), and not to overcome some other shortcoming of the Anglo. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the capabilities don't come from the instrument, they come from the instrument-player system. I have no doubt that a good Duet player could play something like this clip pretty well, and perhaps a good EC-player could, too. Perhaps a competent Anglo player could manage a piece like this, whereas it would take a really good EC player to do so; but with other types of music, the tables might be turned. As Boney said, "I'm sure you could do what you want on either system, the differences are not constraints, just tendencies." If you have years of experience on one system, it will be quite some time before you can do the same on another system. You can buy a concertina of any system off eBay any time, but it takes time and effort to become a player of that system, and to make the instrument-player system efficient enough to do what you want to do. Cheers, John Edited July 13, 2011 by Anglo-Irishman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceemonster Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 [the discussion about whether fast melody playing or easy chording is more important...] i'm not claiming melody playing is more important. my aesthetic bent is that i like it better as a listener and a player, but i have no claim that it's better or more important. i am, however, taking issue with remarks dismissing melody playing and extolling chordal playing, and they recur outside of this thread.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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