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EC: what about the low F?


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is there any way to get the low F, and also the low F#, in a 48-button EC, without having to go for a full tenor ec all the way down to tenor C, or without having to go for a 56 (which i don't think has extra low notes anyway)? what if you want a treble going up to "high C," BUT you also want these two extra low notes, so you've got the complete light saber for B Flat seshes and B seshes? i dimly recall someone mentioning a famed EC player who had an F or played in F, but now i can't remember the context of it. but i'm wondering.....what about in a 30-button? could you get a 32 button to augment a 30 for those two extra notes, or a 50-button to augment a 48 for those extra notes? i don't like vulgar, nationalistic, patriotic holidays. i like to think about stuff like THIS.

 

:rolleyes:

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My 48-key treble Wheatstone has the G# on the RHS tuned down to an F. So there is such a thing.

 

I'm sure you could get whatever you want, for the right price. But really, what's wrong with a 56-key tenor-treble?

(Besides the fact that it doesn't go down to baritone G?)

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thanks for your response!

 

 

[My 48-key treble Wheatstone has the G# on the RHS tuned down to an F. So there is such a thing.]

 

 

oh, so you had to give something up to get it? that's just it, i want the g#, the G, the f#, and the f.....

 

[what's wrong with the 56-key tenor-treble?]

 

doesn't its bigger size slow it down? i am getting interested in EC for fast single-melody-line (mostly) dance music.....does the 56-key tenor-treble go up to "high C" on the treble end? i will have to research this beast...

Edited by ceemonster
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N. B.: I don't miss the G# very much (only a tiny bit) because it's the same note as the Ab on the other side.

 

Tenor-trebles go up just as high as a treble does, and down to a C below the G-- so that's one extra button on each row.

 

I don't think the difference between a tenor-treble and a treble is the principal factor in the responsiveness of the reeds. Danny Chapman famously plays a tenor-treble, and seems to get it going plenty fast:

 

If you're worried about getting slowed down on the big reeds, just take it up an octave.

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I've never played an EC but I'd suggest that if you want both F and F#

you could have both of them instead of the G# ; one on the push, the other on the pull.

If you only need those notes ocasionally I'm sure this could be managed.

This just introduces a little bit of anglo logic into the EC :)

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I have a George Jones EC that has the low F & F# (below middle C) on the left hand and a low E on the right - it is like a treble extended down but not quite as much as a TT.

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I have a George Jones EC that has the low F & F# (below middle C) on the left hand and a low E on the right - it is like a treble extended down but not quite as much as a TT.

Interesting, and unusual.

Possibly intended for playing music scored for guitar?

A few notes here:

  • If ceemonster wants such a layout and can actually find such an instrument for sale, great! Having one made new could be very expensive, because it would require a new design of the reed pan and also of the arrangement of lever arms. Then there's the problem of waiting lists.
  • Replacing the low G# with a low F seems to have been a common variation (though not nearly as common as no variation) on the treble English. To get that without the low F#, contact the known and respected dealers; there's likely at least one in stock.
  • I've had two such instruments, but on both I've switched the reeds so that the low F is in the Ab position and the G# is where it should be. That's because I play much more in keys that use G# than Ab, so it's less often that I run into the note that's "out of pattern". Also, with my arrangement the F, while in a different position from where it is on the tenor-treble, is at least on the "correct" end of the instrument.
  • If you insist on adding both the F and F# without adding more buttons, you'll either have to lose some other note or go the "anglo" route, either with different notes on push and pull or by replacing yet another duplicate, thus putting the F# in a seemingly arbitrary location.
  • To get an idea how the push-pull option would affect your playing, try removing a push reed and a pull reed from different notes that you commonly play on your current English. Then try playing a few tunes without missing out any of those notes with missing reeds. Is this a constraint you want to impose on your playing and style?
  • If you get that low F (and F#), what's to prevent you from then wanting some even lower notes? E.g., what about a low E for tunes in E minor? And I find the low C of the tenor-treble gives a nice bass to the V-chord when I'm playing in F.
  • As for speed of playing, the tightness and reed response of the individual instrument is far more important than treble vs. tenor-treble. My own tenor-treble Aeola is 64-button, not just 56, and I don't feel that it slows me down at all. In fact, I can play plenty fast even on my 64-button baritone-treble.
  • Danny Chapman isn't the only one to demonstrate that a tenor-treble shouldn't slow you down. Simon Thoumire is another, as in
    .

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If you go for a Tennor Treble, Ceemonster ,then you can play in F without radical fingering changes ( say from those used for playing in G) simply by dropping down two button rows .

 

I do not notice any difference in available speed with the bigger instruments, depending (as Ransom says) on the responsivness of the reeds, only a need for a little more applied effort to change dynamics. At one time I played Jigs and Reels on a Wheatstone Bass, two octaves below standard pitch. Last year I used a Baritone-Treble ,in Irish sessions, which has about double the crossectional area of a treble , with no difficulties.

 

This year I have gone back to a 48 treble for all session and dance band work because I have found an extreemly responsive instrument with superb dynamics and volume.

This had the Low F that you talk about but I changed that back to G# because I use a Mean tone temperament and need both G# and Ab and because I also still play the Baritone- Treble and would expect to find my G#'s in their rightfull place.

Edited by Geoff Wooff
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this is all very interesting, from a very informed crew. the "anglo" route wouldn't be a problem in terms of playing that way because i already play anglo. i love anglo, but am starting to be frustrated at not having my "flat-key" notes in two directions.....and was starting to mull the idea of investing in an EC rather than adding a 39-key anglo, which i'm not sure would do the trick. i play both bisonoric and unisonoric accordions and have started to be skeptical about the party line about bisonoric being "necessary" for fast irish dance playing.....but it sounds like even with EC, to get what i need would require a tenor/treble. i guess one could go the "anglo" route with a 48 on two buttons. playing it wouldn't be the problem, the question is whether it would crimp up the style and be frustrating over the long run.....much to mull over.

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...it sounds like even with EC, to get what i need would require a tenor/treble.

I'm very much wondering what you think you "need", considering that fiddle tunes don't go lower than the low G of a treble English. (Rare exceptions require nonstandard tunings for the fiddle.)

 

I neglected to mention that, though relatively rare, there are 48-button tenor-treble Englishes. They're normally the same size as a standard treble English. To the treble they add a row at the bottom end and remove a row at the top, so they go down to the C below middle C, but they don't go up to the highest C of the treble, only to the F below that.

 

Considering what you said about the C/G anglo in your other thread --

...i think i'd like to get rid of all notes higher than "high C." maybe keep the d,, but say good-bye to the rest.
-- I don't think you want those notes, anyway. I.e., the ultra-high C you would be losing is an octave higher than you say you want to go.
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[considering that fiddle tunes don't go lower than the low G of a treble English.]

 

they do when they are G tunes being played "flat" in F, at least for some tunes. you can move the tune octave up and have your f if you are playing in b-flat. same to get the f# when you are playing in b. but when you are playing G tunes "Flat" in F, there are tunes where you either can't have the low f, or you're missing high notes from the tune if you try to re-position it higher.

 

in contrast, with a 23-button b/c boxes if you can stand to learn fingering for the different keys, those notes are there. in a castagnari lilly b/c, you'd get a veritable concertina with pro-grade reeds and virtually the same weight as an ec at a fraction of the price......limited basses for chording, true, but for melody, otherwise, it's all there.....not a box for jazz and the other stuff ec could do, but....

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...

but when you are playing G tunes "Flat" in F, there are tunes where you either can't have the low f, or you're missing high notes from the tune if you try to re-position it higher.

 

Dude. What tune are you playing that takes three octaves? I am becoming seriously interested in hearing this thing that will not fit on a 48-key treble.

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it's not a question of tunes that take three octaves. it's about tunes with an individual span such that if you position them "normally," the low point of the tune touches the low f the treble doesn't have, but if you move them up an octave because of the low F problem, raising the octave then puts the high peak of the tune a note or so higher than the treble goes. you run into stuff like this all the time with smaller accordion keyboards, but the outlay for them isn't such that you mind it the way one might in this kind of an investment. it is not an unheard-of question, and that is why several other folks have weighed in with ideas about it and even mentioned what one of the classic ec players is known to have done about it. dude.

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'This just introduces a little bit of anglo logic into the EC :)'

mutually exclusive, surelysmile.gif

chris (English)

 

I actually do have three "english" buttons on my 40b Wheatstone

Edited by david fabre
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