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McCann, Macann, or Maccann?


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On 2/17/2023 at 6:06 PM, sadbrewer said:

Continued

 

Snap 2023-02-17 at 18.05.42.png

Errmm ... yes you are rather repeating information already on this thread, the addresses from census returns have all been posted up as far as members have managed to track them down (and more from other sources than census) and if you care to read my post before yours you will see that I now have his death certificate - his date of death was actually 12 October 1915, and not 10 October 1915 as the contributor of your information posted. The summary you have posted is information from a family tree posted on  Ancestry, and as with so much family tree information posted there it is not to be relied upon entirely I'm afraid (although looking at it the format looks slightly different, but the provider of the information is quite clearly the same one in view of both the information provided, and the title heading on his family tree page - which made me laugh. ) . A lot of the information that the individual who posted it put up was actually gleaned from this forum discussion as far as I could see when I was looking at it during the week. As an example of divergent information, the  the date of death there is shown as 10 October 1915 (although with no indication of any evidence for using that date), and age at date of death as 57, both in the same entry... both wrong unfortunately as in 1915 Maccann was actually 55. It looks to me as though some information which was already on the family tree was altered later,  since we have date of death shown before date of obituary.

Contributors to this thread and an earlier one have provided a lot more detailed information (it's worth reading in full). The "marriages" to Minnie (who died in the workhouse in 1908) and to Sarah Jane Kennerley (the marriage certificate makes interesting reading) were both bigamous as his wife Eliza was still alive and kicking, and undivorced until she died in 1914. It'll take a while to read through the whole thread, but I think you will find the twists and turns of the research that members have carried out interesting. His life would make an interesting film script I reckon, although somewhat depressing in some areas.
(I have by the way, messaged the Ancestry contributor eaerlier today with updated information about date, place and cause of death as he had obviously not already got that.)

PS Where did you actually find that detail?

Edited by Irene S.
Correction of information in the original post
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48 minutes ago, Irene S. said:

Errmm ... yes you are rather repeating information already on this thread, the addresses from census returns have all been posted up as far as members have managed to track them down (and more from other sources than census) and if you care to read my post before yours you will see that I now have his death certificate - his date of death was actually 12 October 1915, and not 10 October 1915 as the contributor of your information posted. The summary you have posted is information from a family tree posted on  Ancestry, and as with so much family tree information posted there it is not to be relied upon entirely I'm afraid (although looking at it the format looks slightly different, but the provider of the information is quite clearly the same one in view of both the information provided, and the title heading on his family tree page - which made me laugh. ) . A lot of the information that the individual who posted it put up was actually gleaned from this forum discussion as far as I could see when I was looking at it during the week. As an example of divergent information, the  the date of death there is shown as 10 October 1915 (although with no indication of any evidence for using that date), and age at date of death as 57, both in the same entry... both wrong unfortunately as in 1915 Maccann was actually 55. It looks to me as though some information which was already on the family tree was altered later,  since we have date of death shown before date of obituary.

Contributors to this thread and an earlier one have provided a lot more detailed information (it's worth reading in full). The "marriages" to Minnie (who died in the workhouse in 1908) and to Sarah Jane Kennerley (the marriage certificate makes interesting reading) were both bigamous as his wife Eliza was still alive and kicking, and undivorced after Maccann died in October 1915. It'll take a while to read through the whole thread, but I think you will find the twists and turns of the research that members have carried out interesting. His life would make an interesting film script I reckon, although somewhat depressing in some areas.
(I have by the way, messaged the Ancestry contributor eaerlier today with updated information about date, place and cause of death as he had obviously not already got that.)

PS Where did you actually find that detail?

 

No sorry I didn't see your previous post Irene...I'd started on this this morning before you posted , and previously there seemed to be a bit of uncertainty as to the 1915 death. I did find the 1911 census return and a 1918 workhouse entry for Sarah where it stated her husband had been John (musician) but that Nok was now her sister...if that was previously posted...apologies I missed it.  The idea was to at least narrow the death down into that 1911-1918 period.   If it's of interest it gives Sarah's Dob as May 27th 1872.

 

Below is the link

https://gw.geneanet.org/kimd10?lang=en&iz=0&p=john+hill&n=maccann

Edited by sadbrewer
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2 hours ago, sadbrewer said:

 

No sorry I didn't see your previous post Irene...I'd started on this this morning before you posted , and previously there seemed to be a bit of uncertainty as to the 1915 death. I did find the 1911 census return and a 1918 workhouse entry for Sarah where it stated her husband had been John (musician) but that Nok was now her sister...if that was previously posted...apologies I missed it.  The idea was to at least narrow the death down into that 1911-1918 period.   If it's of interest it gives Sarah's Dob as May 27th 1872.

 

Below is the link

https://gw.geneanet.org/kimd10?lang=en&iz=0&p=john+hill&n=maccann

A bit strange as your first post actually quoted my own! LOL Thanks for the link. On checking it I see that it is a website for people to deposit their family trees, which explains why the details are identical to those on Ancestry - same individual has obviously posted. As before, it is unfortunate that people often get their details wrong - there are several people on Ancestry for instance who have showed his death as occurring in West Ham in 1917. Certainly a John Maccann, but a completely different one. As I said , that is the information that a gentleman living in Australia (I'd need to go back to Ancestry and check that it wasn't New Zealand! )had posted up on Ancestry some while ago.

I had already posted up the details of the workhouse entry for Sarah's two week stay in the surgery yesterday, but have just noticed that you have posted details for an entry in workhouse records for 1918 - I was about to search for more detail about Sarah, but as far as I can see that is new information to the thread. At first I thought you had got details of a strange individual by the name of Nok (and went off piste thinking about Nog in Star Trek !) - then realised that it was probably short for Next Of Kin (hadn't come across that designation before) (so have edited my previous post to acknowledge what appears to be a find (without having gone through the whole of the thread again ... 🤣 ... it's getting late at night and I need to retreat to bed ... LOL)

The obituary for the death which was tracked down by Crane Driver about 8 years ago had already established the year and month of death as October 1915. There wasn't really uncertainty about that as the details in the report made it quite clear that  the individual being discussed was John Hill Maccann the concertinist. What was missing was the  death certificate which had not been traceable, which pins down the exact date, place and cause of death which were missing. Trying to find it on Ancestry or Find My Past proved somewhat problematic, but using information from Free BMD and the approximate date of death which had been established I was able to order the certificate. This had already been attempted through a different source several years ago.

Have a read of the full thread! You can thrill to speculation that he might have been abducted by aliens, or went down with the Titanic, that he might have been a roller skating specialist (not proved, but the jury mostly thinks not), read about an apparently shortlived duo with his sister as a vocalist, about Minnie attempting legal action against ladies making comments about her (would love to know what those were), about Minnie dying in the workhouse, and JHM's "marrying" Sarah very shortly afterwards and falsifying entries on the wedding certificate. It's all there ... (Without trawling back through the thread I think you will find that Sarah's date of birth had also been established.) 🙂

Edited by Irene S.
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Following on from sadbrewer's comments about the Workhouse Records, I have continued the search which I had started earlier, and found further records via Find My Past which had not been particularly obvious. Two of them probably clear up the weirdness of the age at date of death on the death certificate. Quite clearly both John and Sarah had arrived at a state of poor health and financial constrictions .


The Liverpool Workhouse records show an admission Dec 8th 1910 of a Sarah Maccann ,discharged from the workhouse on 10 December. She was admitted from 182 Kiln Lane. Whilst it is not clear whether this is Sarah, John'e "wife" the age is about right, being 38 years old on date of admission. So there is a question mark on whether or not this is Sarah Jane (see below, however).

However, on 6 September 1913, John McCann, shown as 68 years old and described as "old and infirm" was admitted to Liverpool Board of Guardians Workhouse. alongside his wife ,Sarah McCann, 42 years old (which would be the right age) described as Temporarily disabled. Sarah is shown as having previously received Parochial relief (which might well suggest that the 1910 entry is indeed for her), whereas John is shown as not having been in that position. The addresses that they were admitted from were different. John was shown as Long House, Daulby Street, whereas Sarah's is shown as 21 Bridport Street. Both were discharged on 8 September 1913. As you might expect, given the way that workhouses at the time operated they were admitted to and discharged from different wards from each other ... but are specifically shown as husband and wife in the records.
There might be various reasons for the odd discrepancy in John's given age - might he have provided that to the governor of the workhouse under whose auspices they were both admitted- or did the governor just record the wrong age, which was then carried through onto the 1915 records?

Interestingly John's description is given as "street singer", so no longer working the halls but presumably down to begging on the streets/football matches or in pubs to make ends meet? Which would fit with that description mentioned earlier in this thread from 1950 (?) of him having died in poverty.

Following his death Sarah was again to enter into the workhouse - Sefton General Hospital, Toxteth Park Workhouse on 11 October 1916, her address being shown as that of her sister, Emily Brown at 1 Toxteth Place. She is described as "Phthsis and Dest (ie destitute), Phthsis other wise being tuberculosis. She was to remain in the hospital for quite some time, being discharged on 30 August 1917, but was readmitted on 31 December just 4 months later with what was described as acute bronchitis. Her final entry for date of death was 14 May 1918, where her condition was described as pulmonary tuberculosis. Her entry showed her as being a widow, and her sister as being her relative, and also recorded that her husband John was a musician. (She had again been admitted from her sister's address in Toxteth Place).

The records for the workhouse showed a variation in entries for her date of birth that in 1916 showing it as 27 August 1873, that in 1916 giving it as May 27th 1872. (Well at least the entries both agreed on it being 27th! )

So all three of his wives, actual or bigamous, died in straightened circumstances
Elizabeth died in Devon County Asylum in Exminster in 1914 having being admitted there on 27 January 1914, Minnie died in the workhouse in 1908, and Sarah who outlasted them all died in poverty and ill health in Liverpool Workhouse in 1918 .


 

Edited by Irene S.
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  • 1 year later...

I've updated his Wikipedia entry with a fuller discography to replace the two items that were listed, a photograph, and his DOB/DOD?. I'm very tempted to add a 'Personal Life' section, based on what has been revealed in earlier researches and in this thread, as Bob Gaskins isn't publishing it (I would link this thread via the archive.org wayback machine) . Anybody have any thoughts?

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  • 2 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

I've been searching around and found this in the advertisers pages of The Era Almanack for 1892. I think it shows how much the Prof rated himself after his 1890/91 American tour, although 'established 1860' is pushing things a bit. Anybody like to suggest what R.S.O.I. might stand for?

 

1872Era.jpg

Edited by wes williams
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A Google search shows this: reception, staging, onward movement and integration

 

As it is specifically a military application, I doubt if that is what is meant here.

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Posted (edited)

A newspapers.com search only shows it on 18 of Maccann's ads after his return from 179 performances in the US, only for 1891 to 1892, not used by anyone else, and with no clue as to what it stands for. 

 

Most likely a made-up title!

 

By 1902 he was putting "C.A.M." after his name. Not sure what that stands for either.


Gary

Edited by gcoover
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10 hours ago, wes williams said:

Anybody like to suggest what R.S.O.I. might stand for?

 

Could be a fraternal organization or gentleman's club. Or even "Royal Society of ???".

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  • 3 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

A few more things have come to light, but first I'd like to point you to a bit of research that Andrew McKay (Crane Driver) did that was posted on a different thread back in 2015:

As Andrew says John Maccann (senior) had a concertina business in Birmingham around 1857-60 and his two daughters were with him. In 1859 they were giving lessons at 76 Coleshill Street, Birmingham.

 

The 1851 Census has:

John Maccann Snr (General Dealer,31,born Lincoln)+Louisa(Stay Maker,26 born Leicester)+(Elizabeth(7),Harriet(5)) at Yard Regent Square, Northampton St Sepulchre, Northamptonshire (HO 107/1739).

In 1859 daughter Elizabeth would have been about 15, and Harriet 13, so I started wondering what had happened to Louisa (nee Hanwell) - had she died or what?

 

I started looking for her, but ancestry wanted to point me to Louisa Streets in the 1861 census:

John Streets(34, b.Hyson Green, Notts, Engine Fitter) (Head) & Louisa Streets (34, b. Leicester, Leicestershire) (Wife) Eton? Road, Plumstead, Kent.

 

I haven't found an 1871 Census return for Louisa, but John Streets is listed as a lodger in Poplar, London with the right age and same birthplace as above.

 

In the 1881 Census they are together again:

John Streets(50, b.Nottingham,Notts,Engine Fitter) & Louisa Streets (51, b. Spalding, Lincs)
at 23 Alma St, Hoxton Old Town,Shoreditch

 

The 'smoking gun' is a marriage on 1 June 1884 at Saint Jude, Whitechapel
  John Streets(54, Widower, Engineer, Father: John Streets, Lacemaker) (40 New Bldgs, George Yard)
& Louisa MacCann (55, Widow, -, Father: William Hanwell, Miller) (9 New Bldgs, George Yard)
after banns.

 

They are still together in the 1891 Census:
John Streets(61, b.Hysam Green,Notts,Engine Fitter) & Louisa Streets (62, b. Leicester, Leicestershire)
Brightside Bierlow, Yorkshire.

 

John died in March 1899 at Wortley, Yorkshire and Louisa in Sept 1910 at  Sheffield, Yorkshire.

 

So all the comments on the Maccann male line behaviour in the 'like-father, like son' mould could perhaps be a little off the mark.

 

That's enough for now - more tomorrow 🧐

Edited by wes williams
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A few folks have commented on JHM's act where he played two concertinas at once. We know from his 1902 leaflet that he started learning using a 10 key (probably German?) concertina aged 7 (see here). There is a report about him in relation to the 1888 Glasgow International Exhibition that appears in 1889 in Robert A. Marr – “Music for the People” a retrospective of the Glasgow International Exhibition 1888; published by Menzies & Co. that takes this a little further. It says:

... He received his instruction in concertina-playing from his father, and proved so apt a pupil, that in his twelfth year he had the honour of playing before Napoleon III and the Prince Imperial, at Torquay, Devon, in 1872. In 1879 he played by special command before the Prince of Wales, on board the royal yacht Osborne, at Plymouth. At this time he was well known in Devon and Cornwall by his playing on the old-fashioned concertina, having already learnt to play on two instruments at one time. ...

I would have thought that playing two German concertinas would have been more difficult than two duets since the German system is bisonoric (different notes on press and draw).

 

On a lighter note, I wrote near the beginning of this thread that around 20 years ago - before sites like Ancestry were available - I'd found:

If anybody is searching for Sarah in the 1851 census, I managed to find her staying away from home with her Uncle and Aunt at 3 Court 12 House Sheep  St (HO/107/2054)

I recently checked this (as its probably wrong), going straight into the original return now available and was shocked to find that the Uncle was 'Henry Harley'. Had I discovered an unknown connection between the Maccanns and Harley's German concertinas? No such luck - this Henry was aged 47, and Henry of concertinas would have been aged 19 at this time. ☺️

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2 hours ago, wes williams said:

... going straight into the original return now available ... was shocked to find that the Uncle was 'Henry Harley'. Had I discovered an unknown connection between the Maccanns and Harley's German concertinas? No such luck - this Henry was aged 47, and Henry of concertinas would have been aged 19 at this time. ☺️

 

That's a pity, it would have been the earliest sighting of him (by one year) so far!

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Posted (edited)

In today's snippett I'm going to stick with JHM's step-family. The younger step-sister (registered as Louisa Harriett Maccan at birth) and her connections to Mexborough, Yorkshire were covered by Andrew McKay in the thread I linked to earlier.

 

The older step-sister [Sarah Elizabeth at birth] moved to Boston, Lincolnshire and appears in the 1861 Census as married to Charles Morris.

 

By the 1871 Census she is widowed, and has two sons, Charles E Morris(9,b.Boston)+William J Morris(7,b.Boston) but now living in Ecclesall Bierlow, which is part of the Sheffield, Yorkshire district. She also has a lodger, Thomas Eastwood, who is a brewer.

 

In the 1881 census she is still in Ecclesall Bierlow, but is listed as Sarah Eastwood (Widow) with her sons Charles and William, and lodgers - Richard Hobson, a widower aged 44 with his 1 year old son.

 

I didn't manage to get any further, but the eagle-eyed amoungst you may have noticed that her mother, by then known as Louisa Streets, had moved to Brightside Bierlow (also part of the Sheffield, Yorkshire district) with her husband by the 1891 census. So we can hope that this was a happy reunion of part of the step-family, and possibly all of it if they managed to connect with the Dunk family in Mexborough, Yorkshire. I've not found any concertina references for Sarah or her family, but don't have a sub to Find-My-Past newspapers yet.

 

Edited by wes williams
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