ocd Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Gerardo, This was posted just recently: http://www.youtube.com/user/concertinaballads#p/a/u/0/Nl5syRSmN9o Just to make sure that we are all on the same page, do you consider that melody and accompaniment? ocd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danersen Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 OCD, Your recommended link is a duplicate of the EC link I referenced in my post above. It is the first of the two posts that I suggested be used as a comparative reference. I just referred Gerardo to the YouTube videos through the links used In Rick's and Marien's original posts. So, it apprars that we are on the same page. Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerardo1000 Posted April 23, 2011 Author Share Posted April 23, 2011 Speaking about the you tube video that you both suggest, yes there are chords but in my humble opinion this is not really a separate accompaniment, it is more an embellishment and an enrichment of some parts of the melodies with the use of chords. Of course, I wish I could play so well. But my point is: I guess that with the English concertina it is not really possible to play a melody and an accompaniment as you can do with a piano or a guitar,. Oddly enough (please correct me if I am wrong) I have seen some You tube videos where this task seems to be better achieved with an Anglo concertina ! (And of course, with duet concertinas). In fact, it looks like the Anglo, having a separate set of notes on both sides, and not requiring to move from one hand to the other as often as an English concertina, could allow to play a melody on the right hand and an accompaniment on the left hand, especially in some keys that are typical of the Anglo. Then, if I can re-submit my initial question (with some changes, due to the fact that a Duet is so rare and there is not so much instructional material) : what is the better concertina to play melody and accompaniment ? The Anglo, or the English ? Or, putting it in simple words, which of the two is the most complete instrument for playing solo ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Speaking about the you tube video that you both suggest, yes there are chords but in my humble opinion this is not really a separate accompaniment, it is more an embellishment and an enrichment of some parts of the melodies with the use of chords. Of course, I wish I could play so well. But my point is: I guess that with the English concertina it is not really possible to play a melody and an accompaniment as you can do with a piano or a guitar,. Oddly enough (please correct me if I am wrong) I have seen some You tube videos where this task seems to be better achieved with an Anglo concertina ! (And of course, with duet concertinas). In fact, it looks like the Anglo, having a separate set of notes on both sides, and not requiring to move from one hand to the other as often as an English concertina, could allow to play a melody on the right hand and an accompaniment on the left hand, especially in some keys that are typical of the Anglo. Then, if I can re-submit my initial question (with some changes, due to the fact that a Duet is so rare and there is not so much instructional material) : what is the better concertina to play melody and accompaniment ? The Anglo, or the English ? Or, putting it in simple words, which of the two is the most complete instrument for playing solo ? I wonder how many players have sufficient practical experience of both systems to definitively answer this last question....if in fact there is a definitive answer ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ransom Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 But my point is: I guess that with the English concertina it is not really possible to play a melody and an accompaniment as you can do with a piano or a guitar. Yeah, well, with the piano and guitar it's not really possible to play a melody and an accompaniment as you can on an English concertina: try to play a note on the piano or guitar that starts quietly and then crescendos! Oddly enough (please correct me if I am wrong) I have seen some You tube videos where this task seems to be better achieved with an Anglo concertina ! (And of course, with duet concertinas). In fact, it looks like the Anglo, having a separate set of notes on both sides, and not requiring to move from one hand to the other as often as an English concertina, could allow to play a melody on the right hand and an accompaniment on the left hand, especially in some keys that are typical of the Anglo. I don't think you're imagining it-- surely many people agree with you. Although I know what you mean when you say "requiring to move from one hand to the other", I think it's funny that nothing really moves from one hand to the other. All the fingers stay attached, you know, and the buttons are all in the same place. =) The switching you'd have to worry about with an anglo is between push and pull on the bellows. Then, if I can re-submit my initial question (with some changes, due to the fact that a Duet is so rare and there is not so much instructional material) : what is the better concertina to play melody and accompaniment ? The Anglo, or the English ? Or, putting it in simple words, which of the two is the most complete instrument for playing solo ? Friend, are you sure you're not looking for an accordion? They've even got special buttons for melodies and accompaniments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 (edited) Speaking about the you tube video that you both suggest, yes there are chords but in my humble opinion this is not really a separate accompaniment, it is more an embellishment and an enrichment of some parts of the melodies with the use of chords. Of course, I wish I could play so well. But my point is: I guess that with the English concertina it is not really possible to play a melody and an accompaniment as you can do with a piano or a guitar,. Oddly enough (please correct me if I am wrong) I have seen some You tube videos where this task seems to be better achieved with an Anglo concertina ! (And of course, with duet concertinas). In fact, it looks like the Anglo, having a separate set of notes on both sides, and not requiring to move from one hand to the other as often as an English concertina, could allow to play a melody on the right hand and an accompaniment on the left hand, especially in some keys that are typical of the Anglo. Then, if I can re-submit my initial question (with some changes, due to the fact that a Duet is so rare and there is not so much instructional material) : what is the better concertina to play melody and accompaniment ? The Anglo, or the English ? Or, putting it in simple words, which of the two is the most complete instrument for playing solo ? Yes this would be a difficult question to answer, but if the videos on Youtube of the likes of Randy Stein,Danny Chapman (aka ProfRat), Goram Rahm and Dick La Vine etc., show not enough Chordal 'accompaniment' for you then you had best go with a duet. There exists one old Vinyl LP of an EC player from the earlier part of the 20th century; Gordon Cutty's "Grand old fashioned Dance" on the Topic Free Reed label. I do not think this has been re-issued but it shows a good crossection of the man's repertoire and,maybe, a typical proffesional player's style of that period.Plenty of chord work and fine playing.You could then compare this with Tommy William's Vinyl from the same period but playing the Maccann Duet, same sort of music, same generation of player. I have been reading through "As time goes by" on both the EC and Maccann Duet and so far I cannot see that one could include very much more of the Piano Score on a Duet, although it is a very new keyboard for me so maybe I am speaking too soon.But is this easier on a Duet? Yes, I think so, well at least more logical. As was pointed out by Ratface right at the begining of this topic, if one tries to put in too much chord work then the melody will get crowded out. This is because finding a different volume level for the accompaniment is not just a matter of touch, as it would be on the Piano. The Left end of an accordion is balanced somewhat in its volume so as not to drown the melody side. The is plenty of information, tutors, arrangments etc., for Duets on the Concertina.com website. Also check out the many fine downloads from Dirge on this site of his Maccann playing. As to the suitability of the Anglo for playing melody with chords... we wait for an someone who knows about that. Edited April 23, 2011 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerardo1000 Posted April 23, 2011 Author Share Posted April 23, 2011 "Friend, are you sure you're not looking for an accordion? They've even got special buttons for melodies and accompaniments. " Yes I have an accordion indeed ! And I like it. But I would like to spend some time learning the concertina, and I am struggling to understand which kind of concertina would be best (for me). The reason why I am asking questions about melody and accompaniment capabilities is not really because I pretend to "duplicate" on a concertina what I do on the accordion, it is mainly because I play just for myself, solo, not in a band or ensemble, and I'd like to choose, among the three types of concertina -English, Anglo, Duet- the one that is more satisfying for this purpose. Example: many years ago I learned, briefly, to play a bit the trumpet. But finally I gave up because, playing alone, I found it quite boring to play only melodic lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 As was pointed out by Ratface right at the begining of this topic, if one tries to put in too much chord work then the melody will get crowded out. This is because finding a different volume level for the accompaniment is not just a matter of touch, as it would be on the Piano. The Left end of an accordion is balanced somewhat in its volume so as not to drown the melody side. The is plenty of information, tutors, arrangments etc., for Duets on the Concertina.com website. Also check out the many fine downloads from Dirge on this site of his Maccann playing. It seems to me that you can do a lot by touch, actually. Yes, it's more of a fight than on a piano, but the opportunity is still there. I like thickly chorded arrangements, personally. It seems to me to be what the concertina does uniquely and well (particularly orchestral arrangements, incidentally) Takes all sorts... I came from the PA to the duet because I could see it was the only concertina that would do what I wanted. Frankly I can't see why it's taking you so long to realise this. Yes it will cost you money to try it out and see if you can cope unless you want to waste time with an Elise, but still less than a decent English or Anglo, at the moment. On Geoff's kind recommendation try these I don't regard any of these as 'finished' or even 'clever'; they are recordings to show progress to a circle of friends. There is no one to tell me where to go at this level but one thing I am sure of is that there's a lot more possible. By the way this is a Maccan duet; you will not find anyone playing stuff like this on a Crane or Hayden that I know of. You buy a Maccan for the walk to the horizon. A Hayden or Crane will get you safely past the kerb... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerardo1000 Posted April 23, 2011 Author Share Posted April 23, 2011 Thank you. Why the Elise is a waste of time ? because it has a limited amount of buttons, or because is a Hayden ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boney Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 On Geoff's kind recommendation try these I don't regard any of these as 'finished' or even 'clever'; they are recordings to show progress to a circle of friends. It seems this link goes to the attachments uploaded by whoever clicks on the link, not yours specifically, Dirge. I'm not sure how to search for attachments by a particular user, but I found a few anyway by guessing at likely words: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=11119 http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=12485 http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=9972&view=findpost&p=100908 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Thank you. Why the Elise is a waste of time ? because it has a limited amount of buttons, or because is a Hayden ? Gerardo, get yourself a decent quality 30 (or more) button Anglo. It is a very versatile little instrument on which you can play in an enormous variety of musical styles. Ideal for solo performance and pefectly appropriate for chordal accompaniment. A brilliant invention ! Dither no longer !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocd Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 ! Dither no longer !! +1000 ocd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 On Geoff's kind recommendation try these I don't regard any of these as 'finished' or even 'clever'; they are recordings to show progress to a circle of friends. It seems this link goes to the attachments uploaded by whoever clicks on the link, not yours specifically, Dirge. I'm not sure how to search for attachments by a particular user, but I found a few anyway by guessing at likely words: http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=11119 http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=12485 http://www.concertina.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=9972&view=findpost&p=100908 Oh thanks for finding these download links Boney, so nice to listen to and so inspirational for me at the begining of my Maccann playing attempts. I also like your Youtube offerings and was tempted to go the Hayden route because of hearing them. And to Dirge..... wow !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gerardo1000 Posted April 23, 2011 Author Share Posted April 23, 2011 Rod and Geo... Done deal ! I will get a 30 buttons Anglo and stick with it for a while and see how it goes. Thanks everybody for the kind and detailed suggestions and point of view. Now, the challenge will be how to find a 30 buttons Anglo that does not cost a fortune. I see that there are at least three offers on the market: Rochelle by Concertina Connection, Hohner 60/8, and Excalibur Anglo, bt JimLaabs Music. All of them cost between $ 300.00 and $400.00. Stagi also makes a 30 button Anglo but it costs over $ 600.00. Any opinion ? Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danersen Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 (edited) Geoff, RE: if one tries to put in too much chord work then the melody will get crowded out. This is because finding a different volume level for the accompaniment is not just a matter of touch, as it would be on the Piano. This is a bit of topic creep, but warrants comment. I think you will find - perhaps you have already - that while expressive techniques on a duet are certainly different than the technique on piano, Dirge's comment that a lot can be achieved by touch is consistent with my experience. You will also likely discover - perhaps you have already - that changes in the direction of the bellows combined with varying pressure (and even which hand is pressing or drawing) will also advance the use of rich complex chordal forms without overpowering the melody. Dan Edited April 23, 2011 by danersen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Geoff, RE: if one tries to put in too much chord work then the melody will get crowded out. This is because finding a different volume level for the accompaniment is not just a matter of touch, as it would be on the Piano. This is a bit of topic creep, but warrants comment. I think you will find - perhaps you have already - that while expressive techniques on a duet are certainly different than the technique on piano, Dirge's comment that a lot can be achieved by touch is consistent with my experience. You will also likely discover - perhaps you have already - that changes in the direction of the bellows combined with varying pressure (and even which hand is pressing or drawing) will also advance the use of rich complex chordal forms without overpowering the melody. Dan This is a really interesting point that I had not thought too deeply about before but I will now. I think I am already doing something like this on the EC but maybe not quite as subtly or with any forthought. Definately something to work on from the start with the Duet. Many thanks, Geoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hersh Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Rod and Geo... Done deal ! I will get a 30 buttons Anglo and stick with it for a while and see how it goes.Thanks everybody for the kind and detailed suggestions and point of view. Now, the challenge will be how to find a 30 buttons Anglo that does not cost a fortune. I see that there are at least three offers on the market: Rochelle by Concertina Connection, Hohner 60/8, and Excalibur Anglo, bt JimLaabs Music. All of them cost between $ 300.00 and $400.00. Stagi also makes a 30 button Anglo but it costs over $ 600.00. Any opinion ? Thanks again. Get the Rochelle - it's a much more reliable instrument. To respond to some of your earlier questions, a 30-button Anglo is great for melody + accompaniment playing within its limitations, but if you really want to play self-accompanied classical or jazz (as you mentioned at one point) you would be better off with a duet or even an English. It's hard to play highly chromatic melody lines on a 30-button Anglo, and some chords aren't there at all because some notes are in one bellows direction while others are in the other direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirge Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 (edited) It seems this link goes to the attachments uploaded by whoever clicks on the link, not yours specifically, Dirge. I'm not sure how to search for attachments by a particular user, but I found a few anyway by guessing at likely words: Thanks Jeff. I thought I'd got the technology licked but as so often...thanks for stepping in. Editted to add: You got 3 out of 4 that are still about on Cnet; the other one is the Handel allemande which I rather like. I'll have to get the H2 out again. Edited April 23, 2011 by Dirge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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