Recently Sold Ebay Concertina

[Old_Squeezer]

Hi Folks,

 

Can you check out this concertina that recently sold on eBay?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ebayISAPI.dll?ViewI...item=3733017430

 

The seller's description included the word 'Lachenal.' The description is what I call grossly misleading. I wrote to the seller on the first day after the item was put up for auction stating that it was definitely not a Lachenal, and that the description may lead unsuspecting bidders into thinking that this concertina was a 'sleeper' worth more than it actually was. I didn't check back to see if the seller made an addendum to the description until after the auction ended, nor did I get an email reply from the seller.

 

As you can see, the winning bid was quite a bit more than what the concertina was worth.

 

Question: What, if anything, can be done to either warn bidders? Anybody I can complain to?

 

Old_Squeezer, now fiddling a lot of his life away.

[Chris Timson]

I agree, a bit of German tat. Pretty obvious from the pictures, but only if you know what you're looking at. I'm afraid, though, that my reading of the situation is caveat emptor. This is not one of the totally fraudulent cases that have been exercising us recently, and excluding that sort of abuse I think the situation is probably covered by the zillion-and-one get-out clauses that eBay surrounds itself with. All we can do is warn people to be cautious with eBay.

 

I think it's about time I added something to the FAQ about eBay. I don't want to put people off buying through eBay, but people have to be made aware of the risks of buying anything sight unseen.

 

Chris

[Old_Squeezer]

Out of curiosity, I checked this seller's only negative comment in the past six months. Here's the comment:

 

>Start quote

Don't buy his concertinas! Inaccurate description, leaky bellows, wrong serial #

>End quote

 

I can understand inaccurate description and possibly leaky bellows, but wrong serial #?

 

And interestingly enough, here's the only neutral comment in the past six months.

 

>Start quote

I suppose you only get what you pay for.

>End quote

 

It's enough to 'perturb' a saint.

 

K

[Sandy Winters]

I agree with Chris that this is "not one of the totally fraudulent cases that have been exercising us recently".

 

I guess I'd go a bit further and say that I don't feel that the item description was "grossly misleading". Yes the word Lachenal appearred, but with a very prominent "?" right next to it. Leaky bellows and missing parts were mentioned in the description and very clearly shown in the pictures. The item is clearly stated as being sold "As Is". The condition of the instrument is obvious and it's origin is indicated as questionable. What more do want??

 

The seller has more than 700 transactions with a 99.9% positive rating.

 

Ebay ain't WalMart.

[wes williams]

I guess I'd go a bit further and say that I don't feel that the item description was "grossly misleading".

I'd agree with Sandy - is it our job to police all concertina sales? Over the top prices paid by people who don't bother to research what they are buying has always been a feature of ebay. Its fair enough to report scams, but commenting in a public forum on ebay items like this, before they sold and without being asked, was something I decided to stop doing a while back.

[A.D. Homan]

Its fair enough to report scams, but commenting in a public forum on ebay items like this, before they sold and without being asked, was something I decided to stop doing a while back.

 

 

 

OK but this thread wasn't actually started until after the item ended, Wes. As with all topics, if someone wants to discuss it, they can write the post, and if others aren't interested, they can decline to comment, and decline to continue to read the thread.

-Andy

[Old_Squeezer]

Well, I guess the only real thing that bothers me about this sale was that early on I gave the seller what I considered important information about the concertina in question. An experienced seller concerned about reputation would have inserted an addendum to the item description stating that the instrument was in fact not a Lachenal.

 

This was also the first time in my experience that a seller has failed to answer a question that I had.

 

Time to end this thread, I guess. Thank you all for your comments and allowing me to express myself.

 

K

[JimLucas]

Its fair enough to report scams, but commenting in a public forum on ebay items like this, before they sold and without being asked, was something I decided to stop doing a while back.

Fair enough. But I for one did not decide to stop doing it.

...(The rest of this post is a reply to the Topic, not specifically to Wes.)

 

In this particular case, I also notified the seller, stating in detail what identified it as German, not Lachenal. I didn't mention it on C.net because (1) I was in a hurry, and (2) I figured the folks here already knew the difference.

 

My opinion(s): This was a grey-area situation, since the seller did indicate some uncertainty. though (s)he also didn't seem to much care whether the description was accurate. Some people consider that lack of concern to be contemptible; others don't. Howver, I do think that if any of us knows something about an instrument up for auction that would clarify its value, it is quite appropriate to let others know. We are a "community" who help each other in many ways. Why not in this way? And we extend that helpfulness to newomers to both the concertina and Concertina.net, so why not to those who yet haven't discovered C.net, if we know how?

 

An example of what I mean -- which also involved eBay, but only coincidentally -- is that a recent purchase was recognized as an instrument that was reported stolen more than 15 years ago. A concerted effort located the former owner, and the instrument was returned to him. The buyer was disappointed to lose a beautiful instrument, but the seller refunded his money, and I believe they both feel they did the right thing. (What the seller is doing regarding who he bought it from, I don't know.) We don't normally trumpet such things here, and since I was not the buyer I have deliberately not provided details. But to me it's an example of how people both help each other and fight crime.

 

I myself believe that criminals should have their criminal activity stopped permanently. I'm completely opposed to simply stopping a particular fraud/theft and offering no other interference to repeated attempts by the perpetrator. And while I do think that eBay bidders ought to exercise care, I don't think that people deserve to be cheated or otherwise punished for being trusting or naive. If they can be educated, then I will be willing to help. (If they refuse to learn; that's another matter entirely.)

 

I'll make one other comment relating to both this thread's auction and a comment elsewhere regarding shill bidding. The bidding here looks suspicious. Only two recorded bidders, neither of which I recognize as having bid on a concertina before, yet both apparently willing to bid prices that indicate ignorance of the instrument's true nature. In fact, the pattern looks to me like a pair of shills trying to suck in others, but failing. However, the seller's long history (since 1998) and high approval rating suggest otherwise. It pays to look at all the evidence.

[David Levine]

The seller did not claim it was a concertina made by Lachenal. He suggested it.

For instance, if an auction house states: "Stamped Lachenal" they are not saying it was in fact made by Lachenal. This is often an issue with counterfeit flutes.

Here the seller's clever use of "?" and "suggested" lets him off the hook.

Caveat emptor. Especially on Ebay!

[JimLucas]

Caveat emptor. Especially on Ebay!

I personally consider "caveat emptor" as a philosophy to be a pile of bovine fertilizer. As a legal priniciple I find its odor even more offensive.

 

The distinction between "misleading" someone and outright fraud is, as I said, a "grey area". Unintentional misdirection may be forgivable, but I consider deliberate attempts to take someone's money through misdirection to be criminal. I know that the law and society are not 100% in agreement with me... but neither am I alone in my belief.

 

The seller did not claim it was a concertina made by Lachenal. He suggested it.

Use of the Lachenal name indicates that the seller did some research. The reason given for his/her suggestion -- that the cutout area for the label was oval -- is about like "suggesting" that a Ford is really a Mercedes because it has a rear window. I find it difficult -- not impossible, but difficult -- to believe that any research which turned up the fact that Lachenal concertinas (many of them, though not all) have an oval cutout for a label wouldn't also inform the seller that other makes were just as likely. And if the seller knew that, then it was deliberate misdirection.

 

Here the seller's clever use of "?" and "suggested" lets him off the hook.

Not in my book. And your use of the word "clever" suggests to me that you also think it was an attempt to deceive the unwary or ignorant. Or do you mean that it automatically lets him off the legal hook? I think the jury is still out on that one. (And it will remain "out" unless and until a jury is convened. )

 

Edited to note that this is my post #1812. Methinks I should try to do a concertina arrangement of "The 1812 Overture"... but not tonight.

Edited July 5, 2004 by JimLucas

[Stephen Chambers]

In this particular case, I also notified the seller, stating in detail what identified it as German, not Lachenal.

That makes three of us then, I sent the seller the following message :

 

"Hello, just to let you know that this is not a Lachenal, in fact it is not English made at all, though it was made to look (superficially) like it is. I have an identical instrument here (same size too) which was made in Klingenthal, Saxony, Germany. The obvious giveaway is that it has wooden levers, to which the buttons are glued, resulting in several being missing. Regards, Stephen"

 

So they can't say nobody told them !

[hielandman]

I sent the same seller an email stating that this concertina was in fact not a lachenal at all, based on all the obvious reasons(wooden levers, wrong fretwork, etc...) and never had a reply from him. However, I don't think he is being deliberately misleading, I just think that the name Lachenal is all he knows when it comes to old concertinas. I bought a lachenal from him that he said was a "Metzler", which I know to be a Lachenal, so I don't think he was deliberately being misleading, I just think he is uninformed, or ignorant, or whatever, as are a lot of antique dealers. and others that are into estate auctions, and the like. In any event, it was a cool concertina(and I have many old german concertinas that are cool), so can we lighten up a bit? Thanks, and keep squeezin, DS