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And your concertina credentials are???

 

Frank,this is not firstly a matter of "concertina credentials" but just being critical and methodical in any trouble-shooting.We all face the same insufficiency as Simon "scoopet" who started the topic when meeting 'concertina noises' and already in the first posts half a dozen people came up with a dozen good suggestions, including the *lever loosing contact with the fulcrum* hypothesis.As I said before this comes up now and then and since I have not managed to objectify it I am sceptical and curious to hear what evidence there is for it.Some reason for my scepticism was mentioned in post #10.Another is that I have not yet come across any metal part related noise with "pivot" action", nor "rivet action", that has not been possible to identify and among them I have not under normal conditions succeeded in detecting neither a lever getting loose from the fulcrum nor clicking back.When noises truly have come from the lever/post connection there have been irregularities from processing or wear and the noise has disappeared after grinding and polishing, and some time greasing.

 

So - I am curious to hear (from Frank, Theo and others): 1)have you *seen* the lever "get loose from the fulcrum and return back"? 2) during that process "heard a clicking sound when returning"? 3) with what instrument did this happen? 4)how do you know that no other source of noise might have been present?

 

Concerning the *noisy Lachenals* there are many co-factors around that mess up the whole picture.IF we generalize - which I dislike to do - it is *possible* that you find a greater number of noisy Lachenals than Wheatstones ( a common topic for discussion...) but looking at that assumption critically you either will end up in knowing nothing or finding a couple of specific details that explain certain differences. One such detail is design and use of materials for buttons and a) all metal buttons rattle more than bone, plastic, or composite ones b)metal buttons rattle more in the pin holes c)if end plate bushings and button/lever bushings are worn all-metal buttons rattle more than others.One might believe that the seemingly greater stability from a riveted lever/post connection reduces these button noises but I find very little support for that.When everything is in good condition and if you compare instruments with all other characteristics alike except the lever/post connection I do not believe you will find any "noisier Lachenals than Wheatstones".

I repeat what I said to Theo,"You are absolutely correct in your anaysis of the clicking noise on Lachenal instruments." We all have better things to do than get into wordy debates and provide high-speed micro photos to prove what we know is true. It's up to you to believe or not, and I really don't care if you choose not to believe what I and others have said.

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I repeat what I said to Theo,"You are absolutely correct in your anaysis of the clicking noise on Lachenal instruments." We all have better things to do than get into wordy debates and provide high-speed micro photos to prove what we know is true.

 

I don't expect you to waste your time Frank if you don't like the "wordy debates" I just hoped you would like to tell me *how* it comes that "what we know is true", i e what "analysis" ( = trial of evidence) might justify that conclusion.

*We* do know that we hear various noises.Their existance is not questioned. Therefore I don't know what Stephen actually meant by

 

Surely "hearsay" only in that everybody hears it... :lol:

as I doubt "everybody" has literally experienced that "As the spring returns it to the normal position you can get an audible click" - because this demands that the assumed occurrence has been visibly observed - which certainly is quite difficult.WHO has actually seen it? I get the impression from Frank that he needs "high-speed micro photos to prove what we know is true" so I doubt that he really has.Theo, have you seen it? Anybody else? I am not in the habit of believing in ghosts or ETs unless I see them (and rather hear them talk as well) and when someone claims having met either one I use to ask for a photo - at least.

There IS one kind of lever escape which is not uncommon particularly with short levers on Anglos.The (too short) lever gets jammed by a too tight button hole or bushing and when pressed down dislocates itself from the position in the hook.

 

I know because I have been doing it successfully for eleven years.

 

Can it possibly be so Frank that you have reconstructed or replaced the hook action and observed that the noise (wherever it originated from) went away by that procedure and you have assumed that the noise was caused by the hypothetical lever escape clicking but might in real have been caused by some other trouble with the lever/post connection accidentally cured by the measure?

 

I mean that the reality has some importance in this matter since quite often people are recommended to replace the hook mechanism to treat noises and if this costly rebuilding of the instrument is not objectively justified a great deal of trouble may be wasted.

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... I don't know what Stephen actually meant by

 

Surely "hearsay" only in that everybody hears it... :lol:

as I doubt "everybody" has literally experienced that "As the spring returns it to the normal position you can get an audible click"

 

Ardie,

 

I'd very much appreciate it if you wouldn't use the "quote" system of the forum to misquote me, or put words in my mouth, since I made it abundently clear (by directly quoting you) that I was replying specifically to your assertion about 2)The fairly common hearsay *when* generalizing after all that "hook action is more noisy than riveted action"

Edited by Stephen Chambers
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Stephen, please let us try to cooperate to sort this out.

1) I regret if there was some misunderstanding but I don't think you really had to feel misquoted and I did NOT "put words in your mouth".

2) I am glad that you brought this up since I am afraid the subject too often causes various misunderstandings

 

Add 1) This is what it looked like:

 

*We* do know that we hear various noises.Their existence is not questioned. Therefore I don't know what Stephen actually meant by

 

Surely "hearsay" only in that everybody hears it... :lol:

as I doubt "everybody" has literally experienced that "As the spring returns it to the normal position you can get an audible click"

 

I quoted you correctly, I just wondered what you actually referred to with your formulation and as I said above I really did not put any words in your mouth.With your :lol: emoticon you indicated that your comment was firstly a joke but then I didn't understand it's intention except maybe as a pun.If you meant something more seriously with it (as if you meant to confirm that "hook action is more noisy than riveted action" and "everybody hears it") you might have formulated your comment differently specifying your referrence to *what* "everybody hears". See Add 2 below.

 

We seemingly agree that there exists a "common hearsay" that "hook action is more noisy than riveted action" but since there are lots of different noises (known or assumed) and the term "action" is not used un-ambiguously the true content of that "hearsay" is very vague and misunderstandings of this kind are merely expected.Some time all kinds of rattle are included but the later discussion here was focused only at the 'lever escape phenomenon' and some people seem to mean that this would be responsible for the major content of that "hearsay" but I did not believe You meant so - so that is why I asked/wondered what you "actually meant" that "everybody hears" - simple as that.

 

Add 2) Many of the common misunderstandings regarding this "noise" subject I believe originate from vague terminology.By *action* sometimes the entire mechanism (action board,button,lever,lever/post construction, spring, pad, endplate) is included - sometimes *action* only means the lever/post construction ("hook action vs riveted action").Chris Flint in his excellent article exposed different actions mainly in the first sense - the entire mechanism.If that terminology would be commonly accepted I think the use of some other term than "action" for the *lever/post construction* per se would be preferrable because for example in the everlasting discussion 'Lachenal vs Wheatstone noises' that "hook action vs riveted action" issue is not technically relevant.

Any suggestions for a clarifying use of terms hopefully preventing many unnecessary future misunderstandings?

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Ardie,

 

My full post that you were quoting from (which was indeed a play on words) reads:

 

2)The fairly common hearsay *when* generalizing after all that "hook action is more noisy than riveted action"...

 

Surely "hearsay" only in that everybody hears it... :lol:

 

So though it may be a topic that you'd like to be "Arguing the toss" with me on, where did I say in it that "As the spring returns it to the normal position you can get an audible click"?

 

That's misquoting me and putting words in my mouth. :(

 

Edited to add from and link

Edited by Stephen Chambers
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Stephen, please let us try to cooperate to sort this out.

1) I regret if there was some misunderstanding but I don't think you really had to feel misquoted and I did NOT "put words in your mouth".

2) I am glad that you brought this up since I am afraid the subject too often causes various misunderstandings

 

Add 1) This is what it looked like:

 

*We* do know that we hear various noises.Their existence is not questioned. Therefore I don't know what Stephen actually meant by

 

Surely "hearsay" only in that everybody hears it... :lol:

as I doubt "everybody" has literally experienced that "As the spring returns it to the normal position you can get an audible click"

 

I quoted you correctly, I just wondered what you actually referred to with your formulation and as I said above I really did not put any words in your mouth.With your :lol: emoticon you indicated that your comment was firstly a joke but then I didn't understand it's intention except maybe as a pun.If you meant something more seriously with it (as if you meant to confirm that "hook action is more noisy than riveted action" and "everybody hears it") you might have formulated your comment differently specifying your referrence to *what* "everybody hears". See Add 2 below.

 

We seemingly agree that there exists a "common hearsay" that "hook action is more noisy than riveted action" but since there are lots of different noises (known or assumed) and the term "action" is not used un-ambiguously the true content of that "hearsay" is very vague and misunderstandings of this kind are merely expected.Some time all kinds of rattle are included but the later discussion here was focused only at the 'lever escape phenomenon' and some people seem to mean that this would be responsible for the major content of that "hearsay" but I did not believe You meant so - so that is why I asked/wondered what you "actually meant" that "everybody hears" - simple as that.

 

Add 2) Many of the common misunderstandings regarding this "noise" subject I believe originate from vague terminology.By *action* sometimes the entire mechanism (action board,button,lever,lever/post construction, spring, pad, endplate) is included - sometimes *action* only means the lever/post construction ("hook action vs riveted action").Chris Flint in his excellent article exposed different actions mainly in the first sense - the entire mechanism.If that terminology would be commonly accepted I think the use of some other term than "action" for the *lever/post construction* per se would be preferrable because for example in the everlasting discussion 'Lachenal vs Wheatstone noises' that "hook action vs riveted action" issue is not technically relevant.

Any suggestions for a clarifying use of terms hopefully preventing many unnecessary future misunderstandings?

 

Goran, are you there?

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Folks, a week ago I put down these questions:

 

So - I am curious to hear (from Frank, Theo and others):

1) have you *seen* the lever "get loose from the fulcrum and return back"?

2) during that process "heard a clicking sound when returning"?

3) with what instrument did this happen?

4) how do you know that no other source of noise might have been present?

 

and since then there has been about 500 more views into the topic, but no-one has answered, so I wonder if anybody actually has *seen* it - and if so - what many actually have *heard* remains being an unanswered question too.

 

I guess there are quite a few 'out there' who have had some "hook action" replaced by some "riveted action". It would be very interesting to hear some reports so I add a couple of more questions addressed to those readers:

 

5) what instrument was treated?

6) what were the intentions with the change?

7) what were the results?

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