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Illustrated 'piece' on Concertina Actions


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Chris, again many thanks for the interesting presentation!

 

My previous post was a digression from the 'action piece'.Returning to that with some other reflections:

What were actually the objects for all these different action models? Anything known from possible patents or adverts? Some constructions are more elaborate, probably with the intention making the connection between lever and post more solid, some are rather simple and faster to assemble ( and also to disassemble) likely intended to cut production costs down.

 

Is it obvious that the complex ones - no doubt looking better technically -have any significant musical superiority? Or are they just a consequence of the individual technical ingenuity and abandoned since not paying off?

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Hi

two of the actions appear in the 1844 Wheatstone Patent drawings.

As I mentioned -Scates appeared to try to register a design, but I haven't found any drawings to go with it - they may exist - it may even be an action that was used, but without drawings it's a bit difficult to identify.

I suspect changes would be mostly cost driven coupled with attempts to build a better action, that produced the diversity of styles.

chris

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You mean that *Wheatstones* first made instruments with the usual clamped reeds up to ca 1865, then riveted ones up to mid 90s, and then clamped ones again from then?

 

Pretty much, yes - though Louis Lachenal (who made virtually all Wheatstone reeds, and most of their concertinas, between 1848 and 1865) did make some inexpensive models for them with (large-headed) riveted reeds, around 1860.

 

 

I have only read about the riveted reed type used with the sixsided early "Aeolas" and then combined with thinner reed frames resulting in a different sound character as well.Did they use riveted reeds with the usual type of frames too?

 

I haven't noticed any difference in the thicknesses of the frames - all the ones I have here seem to be pressed from the same nominal 0.08" thickness of brass, regardless of whether the reeds are clamped or riveted.

 

 

Any experience from others too if there is difference in tone? If so -may that have been the object for using them for a period?

 

Edward Chidley senior seems to have been only interested in making English-system concertinas (he had a great aversion to German concertinas/Anglos!) that were well-suited to the requirements of 19th century classical concertina players like himself. They play very well as "classical" instruments because they have a more balanced sound throughout their range, whilst later instruments tend to be overly loud in the bottom end - but this is more to do with the design of the reed pans...

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I have only read about the riveted reed type used with the sixsided early "Aeolas" and then combined with thinner reed frames resulting in a different sound character as well.Did they use riveted reeds with the usual type of frames too?

 

I haven't noticed any difference in the thicknesses of the frames - all the ones I have here seem to be pressed from the same nominal 0.08" thickness of brass, regardless of whether the reeds are clamped or riveted.

 

I may be mistaken about the thickness.What about the profile of the reed slot? Do the riveted ones generally have a tapered slot? (wider at the 'lower' opening than at the tongue). That is expected to affect the time for the reed to start, the amplitude, and the tone as well, isn't it?

 

Any experience from others too if there is difference in tone? If so - may that have been the object for using them for a period?

 

They play very well as "classical" instruments because they have a more balanced sound throughout their range, whilst later instruments tend to be overly loud in the bottom end - but this is more to do with the design of the reed pans...

 

You mean using partitions making the reed chambers 'shorter' generally? Do you know when that routine was introduced? Maybe the different sound is a result from a combination - another type of reeds and another type of chambers?

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I suspect changes would be mostly cost driven coupled with attempts to build a better action, that produced the diversity of styles.

chris

 

"cost driven" - would result in gradually simpler constructions - easy to mass-produce and fast to assemble,

 

"better" - is more complex.I wonder what the motives have been for some of the constructions.Some problems to solve:

a. the lever posts, when being just driven into the wood, fairly often get loose with time.

b. curved levers may be unbalanced and are forced to twist when moving

c. reducing friction between lever and post and in relation to buttons

d. a riveted connection between lever and post makes it necessary to remove both when doing some repair work

e. loose/hooked connections may be less stable (but some are not)

f. getting equal button touch pressure all over the keyboard

g. getting airtight valves

h. reducing noise

and more...

Reducing costs and building a 'better' action likely is not possible to combine...

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I haven't noticed any difference in the thicknesses of the frames - all the ones I have here seem to be pressed from the same nominal 0.08" thickness of brass, regardless of whether the reeds are clamped or riveted.

 

I may be mistaken about the thickness.What about the profile of the reed slot? Do the riveted ones generally have a tapered slot? (wider at the 'lower' opening than at the tongue). That is expected to affect the time for the reed to start, the amplitude, and the tone as well, isn't it?

 

Comparing a 56-key "riveted-reed" instrument with an early 56-key octagonal Aeola, the reedframes seem to be the same and the reeds of both are slightly tapered.

 

 

They play very well as "classical" instruments because they have a more balanced sound throughout their range, whilst later instruments tend to be overly loud in the bottom end - but this is more to do with the design of the reed pans...

 

You mean using partitions making the reed chambers 'shorter' generally?

 

The "riveted-reed" ones have reed pans of an even medium depth, that are partitioned on the upper notes only, whilst later instruments more usually have reed pans that taper from deep for the low notes to shallow for the high ones, and all the chambers are partitioned.

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Comparing a 56-key "riveted-reed" instrument with an early 56-key octagonal Aeola, the reedframes seem to be the same and the reeds of both are slightly tapered.

 

I only have octagonals from 1913 or later to compare with and they have reed frames which seem similar to later common reed frames with a hardly visible tapering while the riveted frames I have seen are very obviously tapered, I would guess 15-20 degrees.How early is that octagonal you refer to? If it is one of the 'earliest' maybe its clamped reeds have another shape than later ones and frames are the same as with the earlier riveted reeds?

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I only have octagonals from 1913 or later to compare with and they have reed frames which seem similar to later common reed frames with a hardly visible tapering while the riveted frames I have seen are very obviously tapered, I would guess 15-20 degrees.

 

The "riveted-reed" one (like the Aeola) has an indiscernible taper - you need to measure the reed with calipers to realise it is there at all.

 

 

How early is that octagonal you refer to?

 

The labels are missing from both instruments, so their serial numbers are lost. :(

 

However, the fretwok design and red pads are very reminiscent of hexagonal instruments in the 22/23000 series. I've not seen another Aeola like it.

 

 

If it is one of the 'earliest' maybe its clamped reeds have another shape than later ones and frames are the same as with the earlier riveted reeds?

 

They look the same as you'd find in a 1913 instrument...

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I only have octagonals from 1913 or later to compare with and they have reed frames which seem similar to later common reed frames with a hardly visible tapering while the riveted frames I have seen are very obviously tapered, I would guess 15-20 degrees.

 

The "riveted-reed" one (like the Aeola) has an indiscernible taper - you need to measure the reed with calipers to realise it is there at all.

 

??..I wonder if we are talking about the same thing? It sounds as if you are talking about a taper lengthwise of the reed tongue (and frame slot of course) figure 1T (attached) - and I mean a taper of the frame slot crosswise, figure 2T (attached)

post-7957-0-75527900-1297344439_thumb.jpg

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??..I wonder if we are talking about the same thing?

 

No, it seems not! :lol:

 

 

It sounds as if you are talking about a taper lengthwise of the reed tongue (and frame slot of course) figure 1T (attached) - and I mean a taper of the frame slot crosswise, figure 2T (attached)

 

I'd been talking about tapered reed slots and hence their reeds, and didn't realise that you were talking about the venting (widening/undercutting) of the slot in the reed frames beneath them... :huh:

 

As far as I can tell, the "riveted-reed" one, the early Aeola and #26139 all have the same reed frames, with the same degree of venting.

 

Edited for clarification

Edited by Stephen Chambers
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??..I wonder if we are talking about the same thing?

 

No, it seems not! :lol:

I'd been talking about tapered reeds, and didn't realise that you were talking about the venting (widening/undercutting) of the slot in the reed frames beneath them... :huh:

As far as I can tell, the "riveted-reed" one, the early Aeola and #26139 all have the same reed frames, with the same degree of venting.

 

Sorry about the confusion.Trying to sort things out now - let's say *tapering* about the tongues and *venting* about the frames:

The riveted reeds I got from a ca 1890 have a visible and marked venting but no(!) tapering of the tongues

The clamped reeds from 1913 and onwards have a hardly visible venting and as you say "indiscernible" - but measurable - tapering.

 

Conclusion:Our clamped ones seem to be the same but the riveted ones seem to differ both regarding tapering and venting.If that is correct we have got two models (at least) of riveted Wheatstone reeds from roughly the same period and as I said before the extreme venting possibly makes some difference regarding response and sound.

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  • 1 month later...

Thanks for the document, Chris.

 

It seems that there are two major types of action: the "rivoted" and the "pivoted." I realize there are some complications in the constructions, but is there any consensus on which of these two types of actions are basically more durable, faster, smoother, etc.?"

 

Regards,

Tom

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Thanks for the document, Chris.

 

It seems that there are two major types of action: the "rivoted" and the "pivoted." I realize there are some complications in the constructions, but is there any consensus on which of these two types of actions are basically more durable, faster, smoother, etc.?"

 

Regards,

Tom

 

There is obviously a lot of variants and many factors - not only whether the connection between lever and post is "riveted" or "pivoted" - are probably determining those qualities.Some of the most common musical problems with actions may be noises of various kinds and these usually come from pads or buttons and not from the "action type" meaning the lever/post connection so when discussing different actions I think it is important to include the whole mechanism - end plate/button/action board/lever/post/pad/(end plate)

 

The musician wants the action to be:

 

1)smooth/precise/frictionless

2)fast

3)noiseless

4)comfortable

5)...

 

The producer likely wants to reduce costs for materials,processing and assembly while trying to maintain a reasonable satisfaction of the demands coming from the user.Sorting out the charateristics of an ideal action from the musician's viewpoint might be a good start and it would be very interesting to hear some opinions from makers of course.

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... Do you know when the latest "known" riveted-reeded instrument may have been made or its number? ..

We tried to investigate this a long while back ( 2003/4 while talking about Aeolas, see here). But as the number of contributors has increased, we may now have more data available. Time for a new thread on this line?

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Thanks for the document, Chris.

 

It seems that there are two major types of action: the "rivoted" and the "pivoted." I realize there are some complications in the constructions, but is there any consensus on which of these two types of actions are basically more durable, faster, smoother, etc.?"

 

Regards,

Tom

 

I try starting a new topic on these issues. "Action qualities"

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  • 1 month later...

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