chris Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Hi Not sure whether this should be in the History forum or this one?? I recently uploaded a short, illustrated 'piece' on concertina actions to My Joseph Scates website ( address at the foot of this page) entitled 'RE:ACTIONS or thinking inside the box' (sorry about the title). The intention was to create a 'piece' showing as many actions as I could find and noting which concertina makers used them - to try to help people identify concertinas without labels or other obvious identification. My hope is that this may become an ongoing 'piece' with extra information being added in order to increase its usefulness. It is not difficult to modify the article, convert to a pdf and re-load it. - so if anyone has further information, I would be pleased to update the article. Many thanks to people who have helped with advice, suggestions & information. Special thanks go to Neil Wayne who allowed me unlimited access to his current concertina collection and also to his photos. I hope the 'piece' may be of interest to other enthusiasts chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB-R Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Very interesting, thank you. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Franch Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 This is really a wonderful piece of work. Thank you for putting this together and for generously sharing it. I am sure I am going to be one of many comparing the workings an unidentified concertina to your photographs in hopes of finding an identity for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) This is really a wonderful piece of work Very useful. I am sure I am going to be one of many comparing the workings an unidentified concertina to your photographs in hopes of finding an identity for it. But a word of caution, in that many mid-19th century concertinas were built by loose groupings of specialist craftsmen (reed makers, bellows makers, action builders, fancy cabinet makers, button turners, fret cutters etc.), commissioned either by a particular concertina manufacturer or dealer, or on the behalf of one of their own number - who would put his label onto the finished instrument as "Maker." So the action can often be more a reflection of who made/installed that component, rather than whose label was originally on the concertina... It really is a minefield! Edited to add fret cutters - an important omission from my list of trades Edited February 3, 2011 by Stephen Chambers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 Hi I do realise what a minefield it can be (like almost everything to do with concertinas) which is why I've tried to leave it a bit open ended in order to add info as and when it turns up. I accept that the action alone won't necessarily identify a concertina but along with other info it may help. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Hi Chris Very nice. Thanks Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Franch Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) Thanks to Stephen Chambers for his note of caution. That "minefield" is one of the things that makes concertina history such an interesting aspect of industrial history. Certainly, Chris's project is a helpful guide for those of us who are new to the game. I found it interesting that the action of my no-name, no serial number concertina (only a Salvation Army sticker in the fretwork oval where the maker or sellers name would be) has an action that seems identical to Chris's Fig. 20, identified as Wheatstone, "later production (possibly 1880's)." I don't know if I should start thinking of it as a Wheatstone (probably not a good idea), but it's a nice game. The real "action" is in the playing. Edited February 2, 2011 by Mike Franch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I found it interesting that the action of my no-name, no serial number concertina (only a Salvation Army sticker in the fretwork oval where the maker or sellers name would be) has an action that seems identical to Chris's Fig. 20, identified as Wheatstone, "later production (possibly 1880's)." I'd think of that as Edward Chidley's action, which started to appear in Wheatstone concertinas with the 18000 Series (that seems to mark the beginning of his production for them) in April 1865. I don't know if I should start thinking of it as a Wheatstone (probably not a good idea), but it's a nice game. It quite possibly is a Wheatstone - does it have riveted reeds? The real "action" is in the playing. Aye, there you have it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Franch Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 It quite possibly is a Wheatstone - does it have riveted reeds? It has brass reeds held to the frame by a single rivet. None of the reeds are held by bars attached with screws. As I recall (I've had to open it too often to want to do it again so soon) the rivet frames have rounded ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 It quite possibly is a Wheatstone - does it have riveted reeds? It has brass reeds held to the frame by a single rivet. None of the reeds are held by bars attached with screws. As I recall (I've had to open it too often to want to do it again so soon) the rivet frames have rounded ends. Then it sounds very much like you've got one of the Edward Chidley "riveted-reed" Wheatstones, from the 18-19,000 Series, made between 1865 and the mid 1890s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Stout Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 My nickel silver reeded baritone (2037) has different actions in the right and left hands. The left side looks like Wheatstone Type 7 (figure 5) and the right side looks like William Prowse (figure 13). The instrument first appears in the ledgers as a used instrument, probably some years after it was made. Both sides are marked with the same serial number, though they clearly look to have been made by different people, perhaps salvaging a damaged instrument in the 1850's. Did Prowse do repair work for Wheatstone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) Both sides are marked with the same serial number, though they clearly look to have been made by different people, perhaps salvaging a damaged instrument in the 1850's. Such things certainly happened. I have one myself, a "tropicalised" ebony-ended treble (in a "termite-proof" case!), that appears to have been made originally by George Case but the action/action boards have been replaced by Lachenal's. ... the right side looks like William Prowse (figure 13). ... Did Prowse do repair work for Wheatstone? William Prowse (1801-1886) was a prominent London music seller/instrument dealer, but not a concertina maker as such. In fact he was the Prowse of Keith, Prowse & Co. (a major early seller of free-reed instruments in London), who used his own name for the business for almost two decades following the death of his partner Robert William Keith (1767-1846), before reverting to Keith, Prowse & Co. when he went into a new partnership in 1865. Edited to add more information Edited February 3, 2011 by Stephen Chambers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Franch Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Then it sounds very much like you've got one of the Edward Chidley "riveted-reed" Wheatstones, from the 18-19,000 Series, made between 1865 and the mid 1890s. Well, that's lovely to know. Knowing it won't make it (or me!) play any better, but it does add to the character of the instrument. It also makes this character grateful to Concertina.net that lets a neophyte like me get the benefit of the experience and knowledge of Stephen Chambers. Thank you C-net, and Mr. Chambers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d.elliott Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Then it sounds very much like you've got one of the Edward Chidley "riveted-reed" Wheatstones, from the 18-19,000 Series, made between 1865 and the mid 1890s. Well, that's lovely to know. Knowing it won't make it (or me!) play any better, but it does add to the character of the instrument. It also makes this character grateful to Concertina.net that lets a neophyte like me get the benefit of the experience and knowledge of Stephen Chambers. Thank you C-net, and Mr. Chambers. And Thanks to Chris who did all the hard work to get this thread started, it's not easy to do this sort of work, and I think that he has done well. We need to keep feeding data to Chris so that he can develop what is already a reasonable, and could become an even more definitive, guide to manufacturing styles and possible sources. Steve is right, the whole concertina scene was incestuous, however if you look at it from the view point of Pareto, and his 80-20 'rule' then if more than 80% of actions with riveted bell shaped pivot posts were made by Jones, then a bell shaped riveted action post is a good indicator of a Jones concertina. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 (edited) ... the whole concertina scene was incestuous ... And not just the concertina-manufacturing scene, similar confusion exists with other antique instruments too. Take a look at the Names & Aliases section of Bill Kibby's excellent Piano Gen website for an interesting discussion of it in the piano trade. We'll never know exactly what was going on, though George Jones' Recollections... can give us an insight... Edited to add note about George Jones' Recollections Edited February 4, 2011 by Stephen Chambers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardie Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 It quite possibly is a Wheatstone - does it have riveted reeds? It has brass reeds held to the frame by a single rivet. None of the reeds are held by bars attached with screws. As I recall (I've had to open it too often to want to do it again so soon) the rivet frames have rounded ends. Then it sounds very much like you've got one of the Edward Chidley "riveted-reed" Wheatstones, from the 18-19,000 Series, made between 1865 and the mid 1890s. Stephen, 1865- mid 90s ? A misprint or do you mean an illustration that numbers are not strictly chronological? Looking at the ledgers I believe 18.000 is 1865 , 19.000 1873 , and 20.000 1881. Do you know when the latest "known" riveted-reeded instrument may have been made or its number? As it seems they made instruments with clamped reeds at the same time. Any indications what the objects were? ( just cheaper and faster production?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Chambers Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Stephen, 1865- mid 90s ? A misprint or do you mean an illustration that numbers are not strictly chronological? Looking at the ledgers I believe 18.000 is 1865 , 19.000 1873 , and 20.000 1881. No, Edward Chidley's serial numbers seem to be very chronological. It's simply a reflection that I wasn't looking at the ledgers, but going on my memory that most riveted-reed instruments (of Edward Chidley's production, rather than Louis Lachenal's) have numbers starting with 18 or 19,000. Do you know when the latest "known" riveted-reeded instrument may have been made or its number? No. As it seems they made instruments with clamped reeds at the same time. I suppose there was probably a changeover period, but did they otherwise? Any indications what the objects were? ( just cheaper and faster production?) I've always supposed it was because Edward Chidley was also a harmonium maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardie Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 As it seems they made instruments with clamped reeds at the same time. I suppose there was probably a changeover period, but did they otherwise? You mean that *Wheatstones* first made instruments with the usual clamped reeds up to ca 1865, then riveted ones up to mid 90s, and then clamped ones again from then? Any indications what the objects were? ( just cheaper and faster production?) I've always supposed it was because Edward Chidley was also a harmonium maker. I have only read about the riveted reed type used with the sixsided early "Aeolas" and then combined with thinner reed frames resulting in a different sound character as well.Did they use riveted reeds with the usual type of frames too? Any experience from others too if there is difference in tone? If so -may that have been the object for using them for a period? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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