Michael Marino Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Folks, This is a test cutting of a pattern I am working on for making some concertinas. It has been a slow process as doing this between clients work. Progress is moving and would like comments on the design. Its is rough and needs a bit of cleaning, that I know; just looking for views on the design and balance. Thanks is given to Richard Morse (I miss his insight), Bob Tedrow (Thanks for your support Sir), and Dana Johnson for some insightful input and comments. Well back to the shop and more client work (Super 64X finish tuing and a Seydel Chromatic). Looking forward to responses. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d.elliott Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Folks, This is a test cutting of a pattern I am working on for making some concertinas. It has been a slow process as doing this between clients work. Progress is moving and would like comments on the design. Its is rough and needs a bit of cleaning, that I know; just looking for views on the design and balance. Thanks is given to Richard Morse (I miss his insight), Bob Tedrow (Thanks for your support Sir), and Dana Johnson for some insightful input and comments. Well back to the shop and more client work (Super 64X finish tuing and a Seydel Chromatic). Looking forward to responses. Michael Michael, Wood or metal ended? if wood, what wood are you thinking of using? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Marino Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 Dave, Currently looking at wood as don't have metal cutting of the type needed for piercing work. Looking at Maple currently. I have access to a wide range and if anyone has any suggestions please fire away. If anyone knows of a resource for doing it in metal I would also be willing to listen as I know that there are those who prefer metal ends. Thanks for the response and questions. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d.elliott Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 Dave, Currently looking at wood as don't have metal cutting of the type needed for piercing work. Looking at Maple currently. I have access to a wide range and if anyone has any suggestions please fire away. If anyone knows of a resource for doing it in metal I would also be willing to listen as I know that there are those who prefer metal ends. Thanks for the response and questions. Michael My concern would be the longevity of your design, it is delicate with a lot of natural splitting points, particularly as wood will inevitably shrink, the design would be OK in metal as long as the sharp corners did not end up like barbed fish hooks attacking clothing etc. Perhaps your design, whilst fine and very satisfying, might be a bit too fussy for regular play? Metal or wood can be laser cut quite finely following a scanned image. or pattern. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apprenticeOF Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I would have to agree with Dave that the pattern looks fragile for wood (but very attractive). Given the problems with old simple Lachenal patterns splitting, IF I were to attempt such a pattern in wood, I would want to laminate it, let the stock air dry for months, and consider reinforcing after with infused epoxy. Wheatstone used lamination on our Aeola, and even with that, it has become quite fragile. High quality antique furniture also uses lamination in the fretwork sections. I'm assuming that as concertinas like the Aeola produce very nice sound, that the lamination wouldn't be detrimental to the sound. The problem I see is getting the thickness. I know my planer won't go below 1/8 inch, and you would want 3 layers .... If you go to metal ends, then the fragility problem goes away. I would lean toward looking for a shop that will do water-jet cutting for metal ends. Not cheap, but the reduction in finishing labor would be worth it. Plus with no heat input the chances of any warpage virtually disappear. Most of the shops that do this kind of cutting will want a CAD drawing that is smoothed and polylines. I.E. no stops or starts in the drawing to confuse their compiling program that generates the machine commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Dave, Currently looking at wood as don't have metal cutting of the type needed for piercing work. Looking at Maple currently. I have access to a wide range and if anyone has any suggestions please fire away. If anyone knows of a resource for doing it in metal I would also be willing to listen as I know that there are those who prefer metal ends. Thanks for the response and questions. Michael My concern would be the longevity of your design, it is delicate with a lot of natural splitting points, particularly as wood will inevitably shrink, the design would be OK in metal as long as the sharp corners did not end up like barbed fish hooks attacking clothing etc. Perhaps your design, whilst fine and very satisfying, might be a bit too fussy for regular play? Metal or wood can be laser cut quite finely following a scanned image. or pattern. Dave No mention of routing as an alternative ? My metal ended 'Shire' Anglo has what I consider to be very attractively designed and well executed routed ends. Some distinct advantages over cut ends from a small-scale production point of view, I would have thought. All a matter of personal artistic taste I suppose. I posted pictures back in about May 2008. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Marino Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 Again folks thanks for the input and will look into options. I own a small (240x210x45[-tool L], X,Y,Z) gantry router that I use for cutting small items on that I should be able to cut the fret work on. Right now don't have the safety equipment for cutting metal with it set up so that would need either that or out sourcing. Again thanks and will look into laminates other options. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ghent Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) I have made plenty of ends that fine and see no problem in using wood but would recommend a laminated structure. Use a sanding thicknesser rather than a planer. Chris Edited January 27, 2011 by Chris Ghent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) Michael, all the responders so far have given technical opinions regarding construction of such a fretwork design. I would like to add a comment on the asthetics of it. IMHO there is a little too much 'hole' and not enough wood; the open spaces look too big, could a small child poke a finger in, would we see too much of the Action ? My preference would be for an equal share of Hole to Wood, in the crossectional sense, over the fretted areas.Your design is very nice but too 'open' for my eye. More 'hole', and thus less wood (or metal), will make for a louder instrument but because the End plates affect the tone of the instrument to quite a degree, due consideration should be given to the balance of material remaining/removed. The adjustment of the degree of openings could be used, as in Accordion and Bandonion making, to balance the volume from right and left sides. Maybe not a pertinent comment with regard to Anglos and Englishes but a consideration for Duet Concertinas. good luck with your project, Geoff. Edited January 28, 2011 by Geoff Wooff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ghent Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 I think it was Dana who said to me, you have to like the shape of every hole for the overall pattern to be satisfying. I find patterns in which the "branches" are not of constant width the most satisfying. Good Jeffries patterns exhibit this feature. Geoff makes good sense in terms of the way a pattern affects the sound. If you look at Edeophones, in particular at the overall shape of the patterned part of the end, you can see an attempt to control tone or volume. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Johnson Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I think it was Dana who said to me, you have to like the shape of every hole for the overall pattern to be satisfying. I find patterns in which the "branches" are not of constant width the most satisfying. Good Jeffries patterns exhibit this feature. Geoff makes good sense in terms of the way a pattern affects the sound. If you look at Edeophones, in particular at the overall shape of the patterned part of the end, you can see an attempt to control tone or volume. Chris Michael, I think you have a good eye from the start, and I'd want to second pretty much all of which has been said so far about materials, taking into account the increased fragility of wooden ends, but I really want to amplify Chris's comment about things not being of constant width. ( Rich was also a big fan of thick and thin. ) A pattern ( especially one based on natural living objects ) tends to go static when all the parts maintain a relatively constant width or thickness. By expanding and tapering leaves and tendrils you can create the sense of flow of not just the pattern which I think you do quite well here, but of the energy in the design as well. The energy flow is what carries your eye from one part of the pattern to another. Having tapering and expanding elements can also help you take up some of the open space without making the whole thing start to seem heavy. The one part of the design I think you might want to look at again is the small loop at the top center of the key pad area. as each arm of the loop moves out to the triple break on either side, the arm feels like it doesn't really know which way to curve among other things. If you staggered the points where the arm divided a bit more, you could make clearer which was the main shoot. The loop itself is a very small and plain feature compared with everything else. ( in contrast to the elegance of the triangle under the hand rest ) I wonder what else you might come up with. A good design can take a lot of work. I spent quite a while looking at the ones I use and trying to decide what I liked about them and what I felt didn't quite make it. Don't figure you need to get everything perfect from the start though. You'll get new ideas over time when you are making them, then people can see how your work has changed. Dana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardie Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 The adjustment of the degree of openings could be used, as in Accordion and Bandonion making, to balance the volume from right and left sides. Maybe not a pertinent comment with regard to Anglos and Englishes but a consideration for Duet Concertinas. If you cover half of the fretted area of an instrument with fretwork all over the end plate you will probably find that the effect on the volume is not as great as you expect. There are Duet Concertinas with less fretwork at the left side but I wonder if that really was meant to balance the volume or just an economic consequence of no need for (costly) fretwork with no acoustic importance. If you look at Edeophones, in particular at the overall shape of the patterned part of the end, you can see an attempt to control tone or volume. Where do you see that "attempt to control tone or volume" and what results do you mean come out of it? Have Lachenals claimed ( in adverts or otherwise) that there was such an intention involved in the pattern design? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Wooff Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 The adjustment of the degree of openings could be used, as in Accordion and Bandonion making, to balance the volume from right and left sides. Maybe not a pertinent comment with regard to Anglos and Englishes but a consideration for Duet Concertinas. If you cover half of the fretted area of an instrument with fretwork all over the end plate you will probably find that the effect on the volume is not as great as you expect. There are Duet Concertinas with less fretwork at the left side but I wonder if that really was meant to balance the volume or just an economic consequence of no need for (costly) fretwork with no acoustic importance. Yes, maybe you are correct. A more radical difference between the fetting from one side to the other might be called for and to get that balance "correct"??? If you take the case of two similar instruments; say a "Pin hole" ( Dot and Comma) fretted Wheatstone and a "normal" fretted Wheatstone from the same period, both instruments being the same internally, the difference in loudness between the two is significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Hare Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I agree that, aesthetically, it is better to have a variation in the thickness of 'tendrils' etc. This makes the ends look less 'mechanical' (although I acknowledge that a concertina is a mechanical device!!). Here's a pic of my two anglos: left - Wakker with metal inlay on amboyna ends and right - Dipper with one-off hand crafted ends by Rosalie... For me, the beauty of an instrument is a most important factor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardie Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 There are Duet Concertinas with less fretwork at the left side but I wonder if that really was meant to balance the volume or just an economic consequence of no need for (costly) fretwork with no acoustic importance. If you take the case of two similar instruments; say a "Pin hole" ( Dot and Comma) fretted Wheatstone and a "normal" fretted Wheatstone from the same period, both instruments being the same internally, the difference in loudness between the two is significant. Definitely so and the opening area is much reduced with the "Pin hole". On the other hand various "baffles" ( covers underneath the endplate) may have surprisingly little effect sometimes.They may limit the airflow and thus the sound volume too and reduce higher frequences making the sound more mellow. This may have had some importance concerning the reduced left hand fretwork with Duets. It is firstly the higher frequences which are possibly affected by covers or no fretwork. In the lower octaves of the Duet you expect less effect. For me, the beauty of an instrument is a most important factor! Musical instruments have always had more or less visual attraction.A bit strange in a way I think since it ought to be only sound that matters for the listener and for the performer the function too - but the beauty? As a decorative object of course... a nice piece of furniture? I do understand the craftsman however who wants to produce one unique and beautiful object rather than massproducing indifferent ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ghent Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 If you look at Edeophones, in particular at the overall shape of the patterned part of the end, you can see an attempt to control tone or volume. Where do you see that "attempt to control tone or volume" and what results do you mean come out of it? Have Lachenals claimed ( in adverts or otherwise) that there was such an intention involved in the pattern design? Wheatstone #35074 Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardie Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 If you look at Edeophones, in particular at the overall shape of the patterned part of the end, you can see an attempt to control tone or volume. Where do you see that "attempt to control tone or volume" and what results do you mean come out of it? Have Lachenals claimed ( in adverts or otherwise) that there was such an intention involved in the pattern design? Wheatstone #35074 Chris, looking at the photos of 35074 I can't see anything particular with "the overall shape of the patterned part of the end" so I have to ask you again what "attempt to control tone or volume" you see there.The fretwork seems to be rather spread out and much the same on both sides - contrary to the said feature existing with some Duets having reduced fretwork at the left side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ghent Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 If you scroll down to the larger picture you will see the pattern is oval rather than round and comes closer to the side at the top than the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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