Brass reed adjustment

[TomB-R]

I did a refurbishment of a student-type Lachenal English for a friend - clean up, pads, valves, tuning etc. It's four-fold bellows, brass reeds, coloured buttons.

 

This is the first time I've worked on brass reeds and compared with steel I found the results disappointing, they're slow to speak and take quite a lot of bellows pressure.

The concertina plays, but it's hardly a pleasure. (It doesn't help that that the owner's other one is an Aeola.)

 

Slowness in speaking I can believe is due to my not setting the reeds right, though I seem to have achieved a remarkable consistency of slow response across the instrument!

(And have been very happy with my results on steel reeds.)

 

The general feeling of needing high bellows pressure, (as if the bellows were stiff,) seems less likely to be something I can do anything about. As you'd expect, the 100 yr old bellows in themselves are as flexible as can be. Airtightness is good.

 

I'll be grateful for comments/suggestions on how to improve things (or whether this is possible) .......

 

[Edited for clarity, I hope.]

Edited January 19, 2011 by TomB-R

[Greg Jowaisas]

Hi Tom,

I've refurbished dozens of brass reed instruments. The results can be surprisingly good or quite disappointing. Sometimes you are limited by the quality and tolerances of Lachenal brass reeds.

 

Here are some common tactics I use in dealing with brass reed instruments:

Very light valves

close to the shoe reed set

tight bellows chamois

make sure the pan blocks are secure and the reed pan absolutely seals

 

The last two are very important. The brass reeds need every iota of air to perform to their potential.

 

Wheatstone brass reeds are an entirely different animal. Usually the tolerances are wonderful (especially with brass rivet reeds)and the reeds have decent to good volume and great response.

 

One last point, which I'm sure Tom is already aware of. Brass reeds are easily compromised or destroyed. They need to be set gently and carefully and tuned with a very light hand.

 

Greg

[Alan Day]

I totally agree with Greg,it is very difficult to make a silk purse out of a sows ear, I have never been totally happy with the results on a Lachenal brass reeded instrument. The other problem is one of age hardness of the brass ,this makes the reed liable to snap easily.Not a simple task.

Al

[TomB-R]

Many thanks for helpful replies. That gives me a good restart Greg, and it's also helpful to know that it may not be me!

 

Yes, it was clear from the start that brass reeds needed a light hand and extra care.

 

Ref light valves I'm wondering whether it would be a bad thing to try out ventile "accordion" valves on a couple of reeds instead of leather, or are they unlikely to seal well on wood rather than a metal reed plate.

Edited January 20, 2011 by TomB-R

[Greg Jowaisas]

Tom,

I have not used mylar or plastic valves. The ones I have encountered in repair have ranged from just adequate to noisy. I have seen compound ones, that is leather with a reinforcing plastic strip, that seemed to work reasonably well. But for this application I think light hairsheep CPL is the ticket. (Although experimentation can lead to discovery....)

 

I use CPL for most valve work and thin .10"-.12" for the lightest valves for brass reed instruments.

 

Here's a link with a thickness chart.

http://www.columbiaorgan.com/col/skins.htm#CPL

 

In the U.S. it is a perennial problem procuring good valve leather. Hopefully you have more sources and a wider selection in the U.K.

 

Greg

 

PS. Keep checking the reed set. Quite low for brass as opposed to steel.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Greg Jowaisas

[TomB-R]

Thanks Greg, very much appreciated.

Tom

[d.elliott]

Brass Reeds are all that Greg has described, but they were very much graded. Some of the high end brass reeded instruments had a superb quality of reed-work. The low end, 'entry model' peoples' concertinas made by Lachenal were very much made to be 'affordable'. This means cheap, less precise, poorer materials and in particular the gap around the reed tongue, as it fits to the reed frame vent, is a best generous. On these low end models the only option is to minimise reed set, to avoid breathyness, and on the small reeds try not valving unless absolutely necessary.

 

To improve playability a six fold bellows set will help, at least there is more air to combat the inherent air inefficiency.

 

Dave

[Stephen Chambers]

To improve playability a six fold bellows set will help, at least there is more air to combat the inherent air inefficiency.

 

Or better still (dare I suggest? ), take an even more drastic route and replace the cheap brass reed tongues with steel ones - the ultimate brass reed adjustment...

Edited January 22, 2011 by Stephen Chambers

[d.elliott]

To improve playability a six fold bellows set will help, at least there is more air to combat the inherent air inefficiency.

 

Or better still (dare I suggest? ), take an even more drastic route and replace the cheap brass reed tongues with steel ones - the ultimate brass reed adjustment...

 

Stephen, nice idea, but would this not change the characteristic of the instrument??

 

One could just buy a different instrument..... however I would suggest something less drastic.

 

I would suggest substituting the reed tongue on the highest note with the tongue from the reed just below, re- shaping it to close the reed gaps and improve air efficiency. Then replace the missing reed with the tongue off the reed below that one, and so on until you get to the reed frame for the lowest reed, then make a tongue for that one. This way you only need to make one reed tongue, I think..

 

Not a touch of the Irish, but a touch of the Yorkshire.

 

Dave

[Chris Ghent]

Except...

 

Rather than every reed frame being bigger as you go down the scale, reeds are "grouped" into frame sizes. Assuming the sizes all had the same number of pitches in them then you could carry the tongues from the size group below up all the way through the range, meaning you only would have to make a set for the bottom group. However the frame sizes are not consistent, and especially at the bottom and top of the range it is quite likely the groups will only have a single frame in them, while in the middle of the range there might be a lot. Whenever the higher group was smaller you would need to discard the difference, when the lower group was smaller you would need to make the difference. To add to the difficulties, in some reed sets the taper is not consistent. The tip will be say, .004" smaller than the root no matter the reed length so the fitting would be tricky.

 

A less difficult way might be to move each reed forward in the frame, cutting off the tip as you go, until the taper takes up the side clearance. Assuming a clearance of around .004" in the old reed and a desired clearance of, say, .001" you need .003". With an angle of 2° in the taper (not sure what Lachenals are)the ratio of "taper take up" to "forward movement" will be 1:28.65. To take up .003 the reed will need to move forward around 85 thou. You may encounter larger gaps than .004".

 

If the reed clamp is a parallel strip it is likely to be around 200 thou. Will the reed be secure enough if it is not held down by the full width of the clamp? 42.5% (85thou) of the clamp will not be covering the reed. At anything over 50% the clamp will start to tilt when tightened but you are likely to have difficulties even approaching that. A spacer of the same thickness as the reed inserted to "follow" the reed might alleviate this. If the clamp is a half round you will have more reed to work with.

 

Each reed would need to be fitted nicely then tuned. This phrase steps nicely around the difficulties involved in holding the work while you shorten and reprofile it and then refit it to the frame nicely centralised; lets assume you are very highly motivated and not in a hurry. You will then have a more efficient brass reeded instrument but it will not sound the same as the tighter clearances will increase the upper partials in the sound.

 

Please don't think I am attempting to dissuade anyone from attempting this. It would be a brilliant experiment, though someone must have done it already. Results anyone..? If anyone does it please record the difference.

 

Best wishes

 

Chris

Edited January 23, 2011 by Chris Ghent

[malcolmbebb]

I rather suspect that Tom wasn't looking at the more drastic measures suggested here - but, while we're here....

 

I have an old German box with rectangular brass reeds on zinc plates. One reed is buckled.

I'm toying with the idea of getting it going again but I will need to sort out the bent reed. I doubt that just bending it straight will work.

 

I was wondering about mouth organ reeds - the ones I've seen have been rectangular brass, even on new instruments. I've not researched this, but you can get a Hohner harmonica for a few quid which would, I believe, be rather cheaper than setting up a sheet metal bashing workshop and buying in some stock brass plate

 

Any thoughts?

[d.elliott]

Except...

 

Rather than every reed frame being bigger as you go down the scale, reeds are "grouped" into frame sizes. Assuming the sizes all had the same number of pitches in them then you could carry the tongues from the size group below up all the way through the range, meaning you only would have to make a set for the bottom group. However the frame sizes are not consistent, and especially at the bottom and top of the range it is quite likely the groups will only have a single frame in them, while in the middle of the range there might be a lot. Whenever the higher group was smaller you would need to discard the difference, when the lower group was smaller you would need to make the difference. To add to the difficulties, in some reed sets the taper is not consistent. The tip will be say, .004" smaller than the root no matter the reed length so the fitting would be tricky.

 

A less difficult way might be to move each reed forward in the frame, cutting off the tip as you go, until the taper takes up the side clearance. Assuming a clearance of around .004" in the old reed and a desired clearance of, say, .001" you need .003". With an angle of 2° in the taper (not sure what Lachenals are)the ratio of "taper take up" to "forward movement" will be 1:28.65. To take up .003 the reed will need to move forward around 85 thou. You may encounter larger gaps than .004".

 

If the reed clamp is a parallel strip it is likely to be around 200 thou. Will the reed be secure enough if it is not held down by the full width of the clamp? 42.5% (85thou) of the clamp will not be covering the reed. At anything over 50% the clamp will start to tilt when tightened but you are likely to have difficulties even approaching that. A spacer of the same thickness as the reed inserted to "follow" the reed might alleviate this. If the clamp is a half round you will have more reed to work with.

 

Each reed would need to be fitted nicely then tuned. This phrase steps nicely around the difficulties involved in holding the work while you shorten and reprofile it and then refit it to the frame nicely centralised; lets assume you are very highly motivated and not in a hurry. You will then have a more efficient brass reeded instrument but it will not sound the same as the tighter clearances will increase the upper partials in the sound.

 

Please don't think I am attempting to dissuade anyone from attempting this. It would be a brilliant experiment, though someone must have done it already. Results anyone..? If anyone does it please record the difference.

 

Best wishes

 

Chris

 

Chris,

 

As you go down in pitch you have more metal to play with even for the same reed frame size, and yes you would need to shuffle some reeds forward and clip the tips so you have quite a lot of versitility, but hey-ho whose to know?

 

Dave

[Stephen Chambers]

To improve playability a six fold bellows set will help, at least there is more air to combat the inherent air inefficiency.

 

Or better still (dare I suggest? ), take an even more drastic route and replace the cheap brass reed tongues with steel ones - the ultimate brass reed adjustment...

 

Stephen, nice idea, but would this not change the characteristic of the instrument??

 

Dave,

 

Some (like the 19th century virtuoso Richard Blagrove) would feel that changing the bellows from 4- to 6-fold would just as greatly change the characteristic of the instrument...

[d.elliott]

Or better still (dare I suggest? ), take an even more drastic route and replace the cheap brass reed tongues with steel ones - the ultimate brass reed adjustment...

 

Stephen, nice idea, but would this not change the characteristic of the instrument??

 

Dave,

 

Some (like the 19th century virtuoso Richard Blagrove) would feel that changing the bellows from 4- to 6-fold would just as greatly change the characteristic of the instrument...

 

 

 

Stephen,

 

True, but the instrument would still be a brass reeded concertina of a certain tone, pitch and timbre, but maybe a little bit more playable, after all the purpose of a concertina is to be playable, in a musical sense. Furthermore, bellows are a replaceable item within the life of the instrument, perhaps not a consumable spare like the valves or pads, but certainly a replaceable item.

 

Not too reminiscent of the favourite hammer, (not used on concertinas), it has had three new shafts, six new wedges and two new heads, but the hammer is still as good as new.............................................

 

Dave

[Stephen Chambers]

Stephen,

 

True, but the instrument would still be a brass reeded concertina of a certain tone, pitch and timbre, but maybe a little bit more playable, after all the purpose of a concertina is to be playable, in a musical sense.

 

But that's my point Dave, Blagrove (one of the greatest players ever) considered 4-fold bellows to be more playable...

 

Richard Manning Blagrove (1826/27-1895)

 

Edited to add photo

Edited January 23, 2011 by Stephen Chambers

[TomB-R]

Just an update from my original post.

After careful consideration of the helpful information above I decided to work from the best sounding reeds on the concertina and see what they told me.

 

In brief, the most important characteristic seemed to be loudness on the tuning bellows. Get the reed loud and "happy" on the tuning bellows, willing to pump air! On a lot of reeds that meant setting them higher than I expected.

After adjusting all the reeds on that basis, I was very pleased to find that at last it was a decent playable instrument. There were a couple of reeds that I just couldn't get working as well as the others so replacements might be the way to go for those, but at present the owner is well pleased with it. A nicely playable brass reeded EC. Phew!

[david robertson]

Except...

 

Rather than every reed frame being bigger as you go down the scale, reeds are "grouped" into frame sizes. Assuming the sizes all had the same number of pitches in them then you could carry the tongues from the size group below up all the way through the range, meaning you only would have to make a set for the bottom group. However the frame sizes are not consistent, and especially at the bottom and top of the range it is quite likely the groups will only have a single frame in them, while in the middle of the range there might be a lot. Whenever the higher group was smaller you would need to discard the difference, when the lower group was smaller you would need to make the difference. To add to the difficulties, in some reed sets the taper is not consistent. The tip will be say, .004" smaller than the root no matter the reed length so the fitting would be tricky.

 

A less difficult way might be to move each reed forward in the frame, cutting off the tip as you go, until the taper takes up the side clearance. Assuming a clearance of around .004" in the old reed and a desired clearance of, say, .001" you need .003". With an angle of 2° in the taper (not sure what Lachenals are)the ratio of "taper take up" to "forward movement" will be 1:28.65. To take up .003 the reed will need to move forward around 85 thou. You may encounter larger gaps than .004".

 

If the reed clamp is a parallel strip it is likely to be around 200 thou. Will the reed be secure enough if it is not held down by the full width of the clamp? 42.5% (85thou) of the clamp will not be covering the reed. At anything over 50% the clamp will start to tilt when tightened but you are likely to have difficulties even approaching that. A spacer of the same thickness as the reed inserted to "follow" the reed might alleviate this. If the clamp is a half round you will have more reed to work with.

 

Each reed would need to be fitted nicely then tuned. This phrase steps nicely around the difficulties involved in holding the work while you shorten and reprofile it and then refit it to the frame nicely centralised; lets assume you are very highly motivated and not in a hurry. You will then have a more efficient brass reeded instrument but it will not sound the same as the tighter clearances will increase the upper partials in the sound.

 

Please don't think I am attempting to dissuade anyone from attempting this. It would be a brilliant experiment, though someone must have done it already. Results anyone..? If anyone does it please record the difference.

 

Best wishes

 

Chris

 

A brilliant, if somewhat labour-intensive solution! I hate to apply the chill hand of vulgar commerce to these matters, but I reckon that if you calculated your time at a very modest £10 per hour, you would end up spending at least twice what the instrument is worth. Best advice? Don't touch a tutor-model brass-reeded Lachenal with a sterilised bargepole. However cheap it is, it's never a bargain.

David

[TomB-R]

With respect David, in the light of my experience as described above, I'd now disagree.

IF someone is willing and moderately able to do the work for themself, a well adjusted brass reeded Tutor Lachenal could give a lot of satisfactory playing for not much money.