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Suttner A3


nevis
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Hello,

For some reasons I didn't sell my concertina, so it is still for sale.

One of the reasons is that I read previous posts from the potential buyers, and I saw that most of them have a long story of purchases, selling...business with concertinas. I was asking about 4400 euros when it seems that it can be sold for much more. So I decided that I will ask 4900.

I can come to England, Ireland, or somewhere else in Europe if somebody wants a brand new Suttner A3, C/G anglo with ebony ends.

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As I've noted before, that's the problem with makers asking for non returnable deposits and the like. I might well be interested but I'm on a waiting list and I don't agree with the ethics of 'selling' that place, to allow someone to jump in years ahead of others who have just joined the queue. I strongly believe as a punter, that a queue is a queue - you join at the back and wait patiently. If someone drops out in front of you because they don't want or can't afford the instrument anymore, then you should move up one place. The problem with non returnable deposits is that dropping out is a loss and a disadvantage, so the system just gets clogged up with people taking instruments they don't wish for and trying to sell them on etc etc. - I'm not implying that's the case here but you see this cropping up quite often these days. And yes, there are people who will try to take advantage of your position - buy the instrument near cost price and then flog it on to someone who doesn't want to queue and who is prepared to pay a premium. But you really should have thought that out first :) Putting up the price yourself looks a bit odd. I do hope some of these 'dealers' get their fingers burnt though - like people who play the property game, pushing up the prices for everyone until the market collapses - they deserve to be ruined..

Edited by tombilly
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I understand what you say. And agree with you, except that I also understand the makers asking for non-refundable deposits.

Four years ago, my situation was completely different than now, and I could expect to afford that concertina. And believe me, each time that I see the photos of my posts, I'm about to change my mind once again. So although I'm not proud about it, I must be honest and say that if I sell it a little more, it is more acceptable for me. BUT one thing that would be even more acceptable for me would be to sell it at a fair price to a player. I said that I can't really afford it, but I don't need to make money with it.

I was just thinking about that...I read many things about these deposits, but I never asked Juergen or another maker if an arrangement could be found if somebody wants to let his place on the queue to somebody else...for the maker, it doesnt make any difference, in most cases he doesnt even know the buyer's face..so it allows all kinds of deals, betrayals, revenges, murders!!!

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Not being critical of the original poster, but I fail to see the logic.

 

If the concertina didn't sell when advertised for 4,400 euro, what makes the seller believe that it will now sell for 4,900 euro only a few months later?

 

I'm not saying that this isn't a fair price, and allowing for price increases and inflation, but this seems at odds with the way our economic system works.

 

Sorry, but am I missing something here???

 

(Edited to add that my comment is not a reflection of the concertina itself, which looks and, I'm sure, plays wonderfully).

Edited by malcolm clapp
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Hello Malcolm,

 

The concertina was not sold because of me...when I offered it in October, I did just collect it (25th september 2010) from Juergen Suttner. I immediately received many offers, but I could not accept the idea of letting it go. So I said it was no longer for sale, it meant "stay away from my baby, ugly thieves!!!"

But now I think that the idea made its way in my mind, and I'm ready to let it go.

The price of 4900 could have been 4200, 5200, 4500, 5000, 3900, and in any case I could find arguments to explain it.

 

The price list of 2008 says 4030 euros for that instrument, but I bought it at the previous price: Juegen's invoice says 3900 euros. (3670 for the concertina, and 230 for ebony ends).

I went to Siegen twice, so I thought it was reasonable to ask for helping cover the cost of these trips, as I was happy to come to Ireland or somewhere else in europe to meet a serious buyer, and deliver the concertina without adding shipping costs. If I asked more the second time, the reason is explained in TomBilly's post and my reply...I dont have any judgement, opinion, about people making money with buyer's work. But although I did not want to act like that, it suddenly appeared to me that people could take financial advantage aboput it, and I wasnt comfortable with that.

 

I hope that I'm understandable.

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Hi,Nevis.

 

Many thanks for your explanation.

 

I have no criticism whatever of the reasoning for your decision to fix what you consider a fair price.

 

I had (wrongly) assumed that "For some reasons I didn't sell my concertina" meant that you had received no buyer interest at $4,400 euro. I'm sure that other readers may have assumed the same.

 

I apologise for any misunderstanding, and wish you good luck in finding a buyer.

 

MC

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  • 2 weeks later...
I understand what you say. And agree with you, except that I also understand the makers asking for non-refundable deposits.

Four years ago, my situation was completely different than now, and I could expect to afford that concertina.

 

That's precisely my point - I happen to be on Juergen's list for an instrument but not entirely the same as what you're selling - I've paid about €400 in deposit which is substantial enough for me not to want to lose it. I still have a year, maybe two to wait. Hopefully when that happens I will be in a position to pay the balance etc. Meantime there are clearly people on the list in front of me who for various reasons don't wish to complete their orders - they may have got fixed up with another good quality instrument in the interim or maybe due to economic woes they can no longer afford it. Logically, these people should be able to leave the list, get a refund and everyone moves up a place(s) so that the people who really want an instrument and who can afford it, get it as early as possible. I want to be clear that I'm not criticising Juegen here or the quality of his workmanship etc. but I do have reservations about the business practice of sizeable non refundable deposits. And yes, I saw the potential problem when I sent off my deposit and joined the list so I went in with eyes open - no complaints there. But in retrospect I was foolish - I would not advise anyone to join a list on these terms now. Simply wait till one comes up for sale and/or jump the queue when someone tries to sell their place etc. :angry: This is self defeating for the maker of course, as their order book contracts.

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I understand what you say. And agree with you, except that I also understand the makers asking for non-refundable deposits.

Four years ago, my situation was completely different than now, and I could expect to afford that concertina.

 

That's precisely my point - I happen to be on Juergen's list for an instrument but not entirely the same as what you're selling - I've paid about €400 in deposit which is substantial enough for me not to want to lose it. I still have a year, maybe two to wait. Hopefully when that happens I will be in a position to pay the balance etc. Meantime there are clearly people on the list in front of me who for various reasons don't wish to complete their orders - they may have got fixed up with another good quality instrument in the interim or maybe due to economic woes they can no longer afford it. Logically, these people should be able to leave the list, get a refund and everyone moves up a place(s) so that the people who really want an instrument and who can afford it, get it as early as possible. I want to be clear that I'm not criticising Juegen here or the quality of his workmanship etc. but I do have reservations about the business practice of sizeable non refundable deposits. And yes, I saw the potential problem when I sent off my deposit and joined the list so I went in with eyes open - no complaints there. But in retrospect I was foolish - I would not advise anyone to join a list on these terms now. Simply wait till one comes up for sale and/or jump the queue when someone tries to sell their place etc. :angry: This is self defeating for the maker of course, as their order book contracts.

 

 

As a musical instrument maker myself and having a very very long queue of customers waiting patiently, I have to say that I totally agree with you Tombilly. A deposit should be refundable up to the time of starting to make the ordered instrument or, as I do, the maker should only ask for a deposit when the starting time is imminent.

If a maker takes a deposit from the outset of the order he/she has quoted a final price and has to produce the instrument at that price no matter how much time has elapsed. Laws may differ from country to country but that is usually the case.

 

Some years ago I had to stop taking deposits and stop quoting prices because I found myself unable to produce the instruments at the agreed prices. This was during a period when my waiting list time changed dramatically from the usual two years to over ten years! The delay is now more than Twenty years, that is if I live that long.

 

It did happen to me, at that time, that people were selling my instruments secondhand for nearly twice the price that I was selling the new ones. This was partly due to the long queue and partly because my pricing was too low.

 

My current way of doing business is to contact the next year's clients and make them an offer, of price and details. At that point I might ask for a deposit. So the customer has a 'year price' and a year to wait and I have a solid customer/ecconomic basis.This is more flexible for all and takes a lot of pressure off me.

 

Jurgen's instruments are certainly worth every penny of his price and I think it is reasonable for Nevis to expect to be able to sell this Concertina to regain the purchase cost.

Geoff.

Edited by Geoff Wooff
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As I've noted before, that's the problem with makers asking for non returnable deposits...

Be careful what you wish for!

 

Juergen is a world class instrument maker, who sells his work at below market value, as evidenced by the typical prices which his instruments fetch on the after market. As Geoff (another world-class instrument maker) points out, setting the price when the order is placed is to the benefit of the buyer and not the instrument maker.

 

If Juergen was to close his waiting list and instead sell to the highest bidder as each instrument is completed, he would almost certainly achieve a significantly higher price. This could potentially push prices beyond the reach of budding young musicians and result in a situation where most of his great instruments go into storage, as collectors and well-heeled impulse buyers snap them up.

 

Anyone placing an order is fully aware that the deposit is non-refundable, but also knows that, in all probability, the agreed price will be less than the market price when the concertina is delivered. If, as seems to be the case from other comments, it is allowed to transfer the deposit to another buyer if the original buyer is unable to proceed, then this seems to be a very good deal for the buyer.

 

Pat

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As Geoff (another world-class instrument maker) points out, setting the price when the order is placed is to the benefit of the buyer and not the instrument maker.

Well, that's definitely how it's been
1) in recent memory and

2) for high-end anglos.

But there's no guarantee that the situation can't change.

  • 2) In fact, a major reason for the scarcity of classic-construction (including "concertina" reeds) Englishes and (especially) duets in recent decades is that the supply of high-quality vintage instruments of the non-anglo sort is sufficient to keep the "market price" depressed below what a builder can charge for a new instrument without taking a loss.
     
  • 1) And it is possible for prices to drop. I believe some folks on concertina.net have suggested that this is already happening, though not (yet?) to a level below what's been seen over the past several years.
     
  • ++) One situation in which paying a deposit and setting a price in advance does not benefit the buyer -- nor ultimately the maker, either -- is if the builder fails to deliver, for whatever reason. E.g., what are the legal and economic consequences of a maker dying or becoming incapacitated with unfilled prepaid orders? Or if the maker is ultimately unable to pay for materials needed to complete the job?

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If Juergen was to close his waiting list and instead sell to the highest bidder as each instrument is completed, he would almost certainly achieve a significantly higher price. This could potentially push prices beyond the reach of budding young musicians and result in a situation where most of his great instruments go into storage, as collectors and well-heeled impulse buyers snap them up. Anyone placing an order is fully aware that the deposit is non-refundable, but also knows that, in all probability, the agreed price will be less than the market price when the concertina is delivered. If, as seems to be the case from other comments, it is allowed to transfer the deposit to another buyer if the original buyer is unable to proceed, then this seems to be a very good deal for the buyer.Pat

 

That's not really what I suggested - I have no problem at all with waiting lists or even waiting in queues etc., as long as it proceeds orderly and people don't jump in ahead of others. But I suspect that with lengthy waiting lists of multiple years, that the circumstances that prevail when one joins a list and that which pertains when you reach the end can vary very considerably. I suspect that the lists must get 'clogged up' with people who really don't want to be there anymore and would like to drop out but who won't where non refundable deposits are concerned. This cannot be good for the maker either - as a craftsman you'd like to think that the person whom you are fashioning an instrument for, will play and appreciate it. As regards the loss of deposit, whatever about the maker falling ill and being unable to deliver, what about the punter? A lot of things can happen in a period of 4-10-20 years, I'd like to think that if anything happened to me, that my wife could receive a deposit back. Anyway, 'nuff said and I didn't really mean to 'hijack' Nevis's thread - it's just that the reason he appears to be selling the instrument is related to the observation re circumstances changing. Good luck with the sale.

Edited by tombilly
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