Another slow reed question

[malcolmbebb]

Hi,

 

I have a new Marcus G/D Anglo. One of the G reeds is slow to speak, it's very "breathy" and a bit weak when it sounds. (G3/E3 on RHS)

 

I've had a look, and there isn't much to see. The set of the reed looks about the same as the others and it seems to move freely. They are accordion/melodeon style steel reeds - its other half sounds fine.

 

There does seem to be a slightly bigger gap on one side of the reed, and I can see a gap along one edge that doesn't seem to appear on the others. Possibly the reed isn't quite centred, not really sure.

 

Am I imagining things - would that make the difference? Other ideas?

 

Thanks,

 

Malcolm

[Theo]

If the reeds plates are secured with screws check that the screws are tightened snugly, and that there are no gaps between the reedplate and what it is mounted on.

[Frank Edgley]

If the reeds plates are secured with screws check that the screws are tightened snugly, and that there are no gaps between the reedplate and what it is mounted on.

That would be my first guess, as well.

[malcolmbebb]

Thanks guys.

 

I've looked at the reed plate, removed and re-fitted it. There is an even impression in the felt all round, so I would say it's seating.

I guess I could reverse it or move it to another position, but I thought I'd try for some ideas here before I open it again.

[Frank Edgley]

Hi,

 

I have a new Marcus G/D Anglo. One of the G reeds is slow to speak, it's very "breathy" and a bit weak when it sounds. (G3/E3 on RHS)

 

I've had a look, and there isn't much to see. The set of the reed looks about the same as the others and it seems to move freely. They are accordion/melodeon style steel reeds - its other half sounds fine.

 

There does seem to be a slightly bigger gap on one side of the reed, and I can see a gap along one edge that doesn't seem to appear on the others. Possibly the reed isn't quite centred, not really sure.

 

Am I imagining things - would that make the difference? Other ideas?

 

Thanks,

 

Malcolm

 

 

Unless the reed is made incorrectly, i.e. with the wrong sized tongue, it is doubtful that the reed is not centred. If it were off centre one of the edges would probably be hitting the edge of the slot and produce a buzz. The "beathiness" suggests that possibly the reed tongue elevation is too high. Does it take more pressure to make it sound? Another possibility is there is a valve problem, although it would be more likely if it were a draw note, as the valve could be getting caught on the edge of the chamber, in that case.

[malcolmbebb]

 

Unless the reed is made incorrectly, i.e. with the wrong sized tongue, it is doubtful that the reed is not centred. If it were off centre one of the edges would probably be hitting the edge of the slot and produce a buzz. The "beathiness" suggests that possibly the reed tongue elevation is too high. Does it take more pressure to make it sound? Another possibility is there is a valve problem, although it would be more likely if it were a draw note, as the valve could be getting caught on the edge of the chamber, in that case.

 

Wrt to the centering, it just looks like a tiny gap on one edge of the tongue and an almost invisible gap on the other... There did look to be a tiny piece of aluminium stuck on the "wider gap" side about half way down, but it wasn't there after I'd manually moved the reed a few times to see if it was fouling. But this is all viewed through an eyeglass, I could well be making mountains out of molehills.

The reed doesn't buzz.

 

The instrument is very nicely made and comes apart easily. I have removed the reed plate and looked at both valves, also examined the fit of the plate on its backing. Both look OK and there seems to be plenty of room. There is an even imprint of the plate on the backing and I wouldn't say there's a leak. General assembly looks the same as others. The tongue elevation (from memory) wasn't obviously different, to my inexperienced eye. Certainly no gaping gap.

 

The reed plays, but requires noticeably more bellows movement than adjacent reeds to speak.

Judging from an adjacent pull G, the tuning seems OK but the sound seems a little thin - don't know how to put that.

When practicing softly (to maintain evening domestic harmony!)it is different enough than when I hit that key - accidentally as often as intentionally! - it stops me in my tracks. When played hard there isn't so much difference, but I'm not yet practiced or familiar enough to play a tune using it with any real welly.

 

Since it's best part of a day's round trip to go back with it, I'd like to exhaust any other possibilities (and also ideally understand what's going on) first.

[malcolmbebb]

A bit of an update - following an suggestion from Wim Wakker for the a similar problem on the Rochelle, I have simply been brutal with it - playing the offending note very hard over the full bellows.

After doing this a good few times, the reed is becoming more responsive and starting at lower pressures, which I'm pleased about because I really like the box and this reed was giving me the hump. (Now I'm giving my family the hump because they can't hear the telly over me bashing away at the same note - but hey, it's a matter of priorities :-)

 

Mechanically, I would guess there was something marginally amiss about its position in the frame and it's settling into the position of least resistance. Don't know. Don't care.

 

Malcolm

[Dana Johnson]

A bit of an update - following an suggestion from Wim Wakker for the a similar problem on the Rochelle, I have simply been brutal with it - playing the offending note very hard over the full bellows.

After doing this a good few times, the reed is becoming more responsive and starting at lower pressures, which I'm pleased about because I really like the box and this reed was giving me the hump. (Now I'm giving my family the hump because they can't hear the telly over me bashing away at the same note - but hey, it's a matter of priorities :-)

 

Mechanically, I would guess there was something marginally amiss about its position in the frame and it's settling into the position of least resistance. Don't know. Don't care.

 

Malcolm

Have you checked the other reed of the pair's flap valve? I think for Malcolm's example sometimes the valve leather or whatever material the accordion reed ones are made of may begin to lift more easily after some working back and forth at high enough pressures to force them to bend sufficiently, but Reeds that are well set are often slow to start and breathy if air is bypassing them through the opposite reed's valve if it doesn't fully close, or is somehow not being allowed to go fully flat over the back side of the reed plate, or in quite a few cases has actually come unglued and fallen off. In this circumstance one reed in the pair can work fine and the other be very unresponsive and breathy.

Dana

[malcolmbebb]

 

Have you checked the other reed of the pair's flap valve? I think for Malcolm's example sometimes the valve leather or whatever material the accordion reed ones are made of may begin to lift more easily after some working back and forth at high enough pressures to force them to bend sufficiently, but Reeds that are well set are often slow to start and breathy if air is bypassing them through the opposite reed's valve if it doesn't fully close, or is somehow not being allowed to go fully flat over the back side of the reed plate, or in quite a few cases has actually come unglued and fallen off. In this circumstance one reed in the pair can work fine and the other be very unresponsive and breathy.

Dana

 

It's a good point - I have checked the valves and both seem OK. The note is now usable, it is still slightly slower to speak than others around it, and still has a slightly weaker sound, but much improved.

[malcolmbebb]

For the sake of completeness, the problem now seems to have been resolved. I had occasion to look at another reed, and it took me several goes to get it working again. The original problem on this one was a slight air leak, easily fixed.

But on replacing it I found that positioning the reed plate was absolutely critical, just a tiny sideways move made the difference between a clear note and a strangled gasp.

So I revisited the reluctant G. Originally I had gone to great lengths to get it back exactly in its original position. This time I moved it maybe 0.2mm, taking the valve away from the chamber wall - job done. I guess it was just brushing the woodwork, enough that a good squeeze freed it off - until it hadn't been used for a while. It is now much more responsive.

[Frank Edgley]

Hi,

 

I have a new Marcus G/D Anglo. One of the G reeds is slow to speak, it's very "breathy" and a bit weak when it sounds. (G3/E3 on RHS)

 

I've had a look, and there isn't much to see. The set of the reed looks about the same as the others and it seems to move freely. They are accordion/melodeon style steel reeds - its other half sounds fine.

 

There does seem to be a slightly bigger gap on one side of the reed, and I can see a gap along one edge that doesn't seem to appear on the others. Possibly the reed isn't quite centred, not really sure.

 

Am I imagining things - would that make the difference? Other ideas?

 

Thanks,

 

Malcolm

 

 

Unless the reed is made incorrectly, i.e. with the wrong sized tongue, it is doubtful that the reed is not centred. If it were off centre one of the edges would probably be hitting the edge of the slot and produce a buzz. The "beathiness" suggests that possibly the reed tongue elevation is too high. Does it take more pressure to make it sound? Another possibility is there is a valve problem, although it would be more likely if it were a draw note, as the valve could be getting caught on the edge of the chamber, in that case.

I will modify my response to specify reed tongue as opposed to reed plate. It is doubtful that the reed tongue is misaligned, but the reed plate could be off centre,

[malcolmbebb]

I will modify my response to specify reed tongue as opposed to reed plate. It is doubtful that the reed tongue is misaligned, but the reed plate could be off centre,

 

You were spot on Frank - I had to move the reed plate ever so slightly, did the trick.