John and James Kelly

[Chris Ghent]

Geoff mentioned the John and James Kelly album in another thread as a good reference for Irish rhythm. Albums that old can be hard to find, but this one is available on Itunes. It is called "Irish Traditional Fiddle Music"

 

Chris

[Stiamh]

Listening to album in question as I write this (having digitized the LP, which I bought in about 1980), I can only repeat Geoff's recommendation of it as a very educational record to listen to for anyone who wants to hear the rhythm and pulse of Irish dance tunes stated particularly clearly and very enjoyably.

 

What makes it especially enjoyable to me is that although the rhythm is so clear, the playing is gutsy and dirty - nothing precious about the way the brothers smack you round the head with that beautiful, inescapable swing and pulse. Great playing.

 

So thanks Chris for letting us know that this great record can be had online.

 

PS Here's a clip of the lads with their da playing one of the selections that is on the LP, recorded at about the same time it was released, too.

 

[Peter Laban]

Lovely stuff. I happened to sail into that first tune yesterday while scrounging around the corners of my brain for old repertoire. Caher Rua it was called at the time, by some. Paddy Glackin recorded that under that name didn't he?

[Stephen Chambers]

When I lived in Dublin, I'd go to John's session most weeks, and now that I live in Clare I'd often see him in Friel's over a Bank Holiday. He'll always ask me to join in and it's always a pleasure - he has that lovely old pace and timing that fiddlers like Bobby Casey had.

[Henrik Müller]

Geoff mentioned the John and James Kelly album in another thread as a good reference for Irish rhythm. Albums that old can be hard to find, but this one is available on Itunes. It is called "Irish Traditional Fiddle Music"

 

Chris

If it is old stuff you need, here's a good place for that - legal, too.

 

/Henrik

[Geoff Wooff]

There are many many fine CD's that are easily available, which might, or should be, in the collections of concertina players. One player that comes to mind for her fine and definate rhythmic style is Mary McNamara. Mary plays at a relaxed East Clare pace which should make it easy to understand her Internal Rhythm stresses.

 

Another very important Concertina player, that nobody mentions for some strange reason, is Tom O'Driscol who lives just outside of Ennistymon in Clare. Tom was taken, by his father, to Doolin when he was a child and he has absorbed a lot of Packie Russell's style. Thus Tom plays in an older style which is a delight to my ears. I recall with great warmth the many sessions we had with Tom and Paddy and John Killoughrey over the years. Unfortunately I do not know of any recordings of Tom O'Driscol but maybe 'our man on the ground' there, David Levine, might be able to point the way.

 

It is often said that 'foreigners' cannot play jigs, well that simply is not true. That many have not absorbed a good way to play them is more correct.

Here (Massiff Central, France) in our local band where we play mostly Bourrees, Scottishs and Mazurkas, the jig " Tripping upstairs" is used for the dancing of the Circasian Circle. One of our older players asks me, every time, why are you not playing with this tune, surely you know it, it's Irish ? Wherever they got this tune from I do not know but they play it ' straight' in the fasion of jigs played for Rapper Dancing in the north east of England. So,my wife and I do not wish to play like this so we abstain. One day I found a very easy 'Slide' that fitted onto the Hurdy Gurdy and introduced that to the band. It works for them and they love it.

 

There is much to listen to, it is a great learning adventure.

Geoff.

Edited October 22, 2010 by Geoff Wooff

[Peter Laban]

It IS a great listening adventure. Between the internet and everything else though I sometimes think there's almost too much to listen to. So it's important to pick the right stuff and really listen to it.

 

I sometimes think I was better off during the eighties when I had maybe a dozen tapes and a bunch of lps but knew every note on them. Now I have a veritable archive but have loads of stuff I have heard maybe once or twice. And I won't even touch o nthe abundance of CDs available, I bought three this year.

 

Today I still find I can recall many tunes I learned from those early tapes (I mentioned the one above) while I have trouble remembering I learned a tune last week (I will have the tune when prompted, the problem is remembering I have it at all). That may be age kicking in though.

[Stiamh]

Lovely stuff. I happened to sail into that first tune yesterday while scrounging around the corners of my brain for old repertoire. Caher Rua it was called at the time, by some. Paddy Glackin recorded that under that name didn't he?

 

Yes he called it Caher Rua / Red-haired Charles, and it appears with that name in one of the Bulmer & Sharpley books (which predate that PG album). The Kellys call it "Ceathru Cavan" - the first word looks like a contraction of "Caher Rua".

[Stiamh]

Here (Massiff Central, France) in our local band where we play mostly Bourrees, Scottishs and Mazurkas, the jig " Tripping upstairs" is used for the dancing of the Circasian Circle. One of our older players asks me, every time, why are you not playing with this tune, surely you know it, it's Irish ? Wherever they got this tune from I do not know but they play it ' straight' in the fasion of jigs played for Rapper Dancing in the north east of England.

 

I bet I know where they got it, because I came across it in a French instruction book for "le diato" (as they call button boxes) while visiting friends of my wife's in France this year. IIRC it was called "Tony Hall's jig", the authors evidently having got it from an early LP by Tony Hall, the brilliant English melodeon player. I have that record, and Tony plays it OK (with Andy Irvine in there somewhere I seem to remember), but I'd bet that most of your locals learnt it from the tablature in the book I saw, or from others who had done so. (A high proportion of French diato players seem to find it very difficult to learn a tune without tablature to tell them what buttons to press )

[Peter Laban]

with Andy Irvine in there somewhere I seem to remember

 

Nearly, it was Johnny Moynihan, who took 'Tripping up the Stairs' along from Tony Hall's to De Dannan shortly after.

Edited October 24, 2010 by Peter Laban

[Lawrence Reeves]

Let's look at a few possibilities. The fact that the word "ceathrú" with the fáda means quarter, or fourth is a possible. The Irish for city is "cathair". My thought is Red Charles would be "Cathal Rua" , and don't see this as a good choice. John Kelly senior from Rehy, Kilbaha, Clare grew up with Irish as the spoken language in the home, and likely John Jr. and James also have excellent Irish. I suggest that the printer, or editor for the recording made a linguistic error. I also suspect it should have been "Cathair Cabhán, or Cavan Town. Maybe some of our Irish speaking member can chime in on my suspicions.

[Peter Laban]

The unfortunate thing, as I recall, is that the explanation/translation of Caher Rua-Redhaired Charles appears in the sleeve notes of the Glackin lp. They were written by Séamus Ennis, who, you'd expect, knew/should have known better. The Caher=Cathall never worked for me.

 

Caher is commonly used here for ringforts so the Red Fort can be a local landmark, if you know the locality the tune originates in.

[Geoff Wooff]

Here (Massiff Central, France) in our local band where we play mostly Bourrees, Scottishs and Mazurkas, the jig " Tripping upstairs" is used for the dancing of the Circasian Circle. One of our older players asks me, every time, why are you not playing with this tune, surely you know it, it's Irish ? Wherever they got this tune from I do not know but they play it ' straight' in the fasion of jigs played for Rapper Dancing in the north east of England.

 

I bet I know where they got it, because I came across it in a French instruction book for "le diato" (as they call button boxes) while visiting friends of my wife's in France this year. IIRC it was called "Tony Hall's jig", the authors evidently having got it from an early LP by Tony Hall, the brilliant English melodeon player. I have that record, and Tony plays it OK (with Andy Irvine in there somewhere I seem to remember), but I'd bet that most of your locals learnt it from the tablature in the book I saw, or from others who had done so. (A high proportion of French diato players seem to find it very difficult to learn a tune without tablature to tell them what buttons to press )

 

 

Yes Zizi,

I think you are correct and the alternative name 'Tony Hall's' has been used locally.

 

Regarding the Diato players use of tablature or the other musicians use of an ABC type system based on Do,Re,Mi etc., is confusing to us. Our neighbour who plays the H/gurdy uses this Do,Mi ,Fa stuff but we cannot see where she puts in the time/Rhythm marks. Her Husband, our other H/Gurdy player is quite OK with staff notation.

 

The other piece of wonderment is the expressions on these local musicians faces when we pick up a new tune ,by ear, almost instantly. Years of practice in trying to learn a new Reel or Jig during a session does hone these skills and many of the local tunes here are not very complex. However, it is quite a challenge to get the musical dialect right...... more listening needed!

 

Geoff.

[Lawrence Reeves]

Carrowmore, County Cavan is a townland in the Parish of Tomregan, Barony of Tullyhaw, County Cavan, Ireland. The townland name is an anglicisation of the Gaelic placename “Ceathrú Mhór” which means ‘The Great Quarter’. It derives its name from the large size of the townland which in medieval times comprised a quarter of the ballybethagh of Calvagh, as it originally consisted of the present-day townlands of Carrowmore, Mullinacre Lower, Mullinacre Upper and Moher, a total of 2,066 statute acres. The oldest surviving mention of the name is in the 1609 Ulster Plantation grant where it is spelled ‘Carraghmore’.

[Michael Reid]

Geoff mentioned the John and James Kelly album in another thread as a good reference for Irish rhythm. Albums that old can be hard to find, but this one is available on Itunes. It is called "Irish Traditional Fiddle Music"

 

I found it on iTunes under the title "Irish Traditional Music," although iTunes' picture of the album clearly shows "Fiddle" in the title.

[ceemonster]

can you guys recommend best tutorial(s)/resources for learning irish solo (or, at least, doing much of it solo)? i have been through the process of learning a foreign language, have a degree in french literature, all done in french, and have ESL teaching credential & exp, so the process wouldn't be unknown, but i'm not sure where to turn for good self-learning materials....?

[michael sam wild]

Geoff mentioned the John and James Kelly album in another thread as a good reference for Irish rhythm. Albums that old can be hard to find, but this one is available on Itunes. It is called "Irish Traditional Fiddle Music"

 

Chris

 

 

I contacted Celtic Grooves in the States (I'm in UK) can I get it anywhere nearer home? Mind you Phillipe ws very nice and helpful but transferring money to him is quite complex. I like PayPal

[Geoff Wooff]

can you guys recommend best tutorial(s)/resources for learning irish solo (or, at least, doing much of it solo)? i have been through the process of learning a foreign language, have a degree in french literature, all done in french, and have ESL teaching credential & exp, so the process wouldn't be unknown, but i'm not sure where to turn for good self-learning materials....?

 

I suppose it all depends on which type of Concertina and what type of music you wish to "self-learn". I feel sure you could find a virtual teacher on-line, especially for Irish Music on the Anglo.

 

My own method has always been to listen,listen,listen to as much good source material as possible. In this respect I took a circuitous route to playing Irish music on the EC, by teaching myself to play the Uilleann pipes. This I did by listening to tapes of Seamus Ennis and Willie Clancy, all day long, for years..... Luckily I work alone, at home, so my choice of sonic entertainment, while I work, is my own.

This method could be described as learning by Osmosis but is simply 'by absorbtion'. Many times, whilst I worked, a new tune would arrive in my head, via this repetitive listening method, I would rush to my pipes and play the piece, almost verbatim,first time over.

 

At that time, living quite isolatedly in Australia, I listened to little else and played nothing else for many years. Eventually I began to play the EC again and arrived at a much more authentic style of Irish music than I had previously managed.

 

 

With the modern audio equipment available today, Cd's / MP3's/computers etc., it is even simpler to absorb music. Repeating sections of recorded pieces, using 'slow-downer' devices to listen to the fine details.Do you wish for something more perhaps?

 

I am happy to help if I can,

Geoff.