Playing in all keys

[fernando]

Anybody interested in playing in all keys?

 

I'm trying with my English Concertina, if somebody is interested we can talk about this

 

Anglo players included, I would like to know the possibilities for them as well

 

Fernando

Edited October 16, 2010 by fernando

[Chris Drinkwater]

Anybody interested in playing in all keys?

 

When you say playing in all keys, Fernando, do you have any particular purpose and any particular keys in mind? Obviously, it's easier to play in any key you like on the EC because it's fully chromatic. Outside of the normal 'session friendly' keys that traditional music is played in, in England, which are D and G and sometimes C, in East Anglia, I have had a go at playing some tunes I know, in the keys of A, Bb, Em and F. A lot of Scottish fiddle tunes are written in the key of A. I have certainly found it interesting and a challenge to have a go at playing in keys that I am not used to playing in. And some tunes seem to sound better in a non-standard key.

 

Chris

[fernando]

Hello Chris!

 

No purpose in mind really... I mainly do this for the fun of it

 

But sometimes I do come across with music in extrange keys: Basque Country, Castille, Central France...

 

I usually take a tune and start changing the key. I usually take one I know which key it is in, and from there I start playing in a different note.

 

Today I got excited, that's why I posted this Chris. I got to play one Irish barndance that is in G Major in all the Major keys, 12 in all. I need to practise more in C#, F# and G#, but I'm almost there. For sure these are the most difficult ones for me for the Major scales.

 

To do this for this barndance I've chosen the easier octave I could find for each key.

 

And Chris! I play one of your tunes, The Gardener's Delight, in 9 keys! A, Bb, B, C, D, Eb, E, F and G. I do G#, but with many mistakes at the moment. I leave C# and F# for the future.

 

Fernando

Edited October 16, 2010 by fernando

[Alan Day]

This is an interesting subject for experimentation purposes on the Anglo, but working on the principle that practice time is precious ,I feel that the hours spent trying to play tunes in different keys, with problems of note and chord directions that I certainly would not even attempt this. Trying to play a specific tune which changes direction into another key, or is taking you down paths which you have not played before I am happy to have a go at and my recent attempts at Music Hall tunes have done just that.Perhaps the English lends itself to these experiments, or perhaps I am just taking the easy path of picking up a different box to play in different keys.

Al

[John Adey]

Anybody interested in playing in all keys?

 

When you say playing in all keys, Fernando, do you have any particular purpose and any particular keys in mind? Obviously, it's easier to play in any key you like on the EC because it's fully chromatic. Outside of the normal 'session friendly' keys that traditional music is played in, in England, which are D and G and sometimes C, in East Anglia, I have had a go at playing some tunes I know, in the keys of A, Bb, Em and F. A lot of Scottish fiddle tunes are written in the key of A. I have certainly found it interesting and a challenge to have a go at playing in keys that I am not used to playing in. And some tunes seem to sound better in a non-standard key.

 

Chris

 

A few days ago a friend suggested we play some pieces he plays in a West Gallery band. Three and four flats..........interesting.

 

His comment when I raised my eyebrows, 'Oh, do grow up John.' Which I took to mean that 'a proper musician' (harking back to a previous thread I started on when one becomes a 'musician') would just take it in their stride.

 

Having played in a similar band in the past West Gallery music is one way of familiarising yourself with the more unusual keys; by the time you've got to about the 5th verse you've usually got the hang of where those seldom-played-keys are. And, connecting to Chris's last sentence, they do sound 'right' in those other keys.

[fernando]

This is an interesting subject for experimentation purposes on the Anglo, but working on the principle that practice time is precious ,I feel that the hours spent trying to play tunes in different keys, with problems of note and chord directions that I certainly would not even attempt this. Trying to play a specific tune which changes direction into another key, or is taking you down paths which you have not played before I am happy to have a go at and my recent attempts at Music Hall tunes have done just that.Perhaps the English lends itself to these experiments, or perhaps I am just taking the easy path of picking up a different box to play in different keys.

Al

 

Hi Alan! I must recognise that because I'm trying to do this, I'm leaving out some details in the music. For example I hardly ever play chords, and the ornamentation I do is simpler as well... When I listen you playing I can see that the music is more elaborated, with more details.

 

But anyway I have many questions about this. For example:

 

My concertina has 48 buttons, the anglos that people play here in Ireland have 30. I suppose that if they had an anglo with more buttons they could experiment to play in all the keys?

 

As you say, I've met people with anglos in another keys. I would love to be able to know straight away which keys I can play with them when they get those uncommon concertinas

 

Fernando

Edited October 17, 2010 by fernando

[JimLucas]

Perhaps the English lends itself to these experiments....

It does, Alan; it does!

Far more so than the anglo, and more than any other common concertina keyboard, except for the Hayden.

[Alan Day]

Well no doubt those with superior knowledge on these things can add to this comment, but I would suggest that it would be fairly simple after a bit of practice on a CG box to play in C, G, F,D, A Minor, E Minor The latter I normally switch boxes.

Whilst we are on the Minor subject , minor chords seem rarely used for ITM where I think in some cases it would enhance the sound, even some fairly famous players put in a major chord where it should be a minor one.

Al

[fernando]

Well no doubt those with superior knowledge on these things can add to this comment, but I would suggest that it would be fairly simple after a bit of practice on a CG box to play in C, G, F,D, A Minor, E Minor The latter I normally switch boxes.

Whilst we are on the Minor subject , minor chords seem rarely used for ITM where I think in some cases it would enhance the sound, even some fairly famous players put in a major chord where it should be a minor one.

Al

 

I didn't know that CG anglo players can play in F and A Minor! thanks for that Alan! If I'm not mistaken, I knew that they can play in:

 

- Major keys: A, C, D and G

 

- Minor keys: Bm, Dm, Gm and Em

 

But those two are new to me! I love to play in F Major, I sometimes practise a few tunes in that key.

 

Fernando

[Alan Day]

Well no doubt those with superior knowledge on these things can add to this comment, but I would suggest that it would be fairly simple after a bit of practice on a CG box to play in C, G, F,D, A Minor, E Minor The latter I normally switch boxes.

Whilst we are on the Minor subject , minor chords seem rarely used for ITM where I think in some cases it would enhance the sound, even some fairly famous players put in a major chord where it should be a minor one.

Al

 

I didn't know that CG anglo players can play in F and A Minor! thanks for that Alan! If I'm not mistaken, I knew that they can play in:

 

- Major keys: A, C, D and G

 

- Minor keys: Bm, Dm, Gm and Em

 

But those two are new to me! I love to play in F Major, I sometimes practise a few tunes in that key.

 

Fernando

You will have to use the accidentals, I should have said that.

Good luck

Al

[Anglo-Irishman]

A few days ago a friend suggested we play some pieces he plays in a West Gallery band. Three and four flats..........interesting.

 

John,

I take it West Gallery music is church music - hymns and such?

 

Hymn books are a good illustration of why so many different keys are used. The purpose is to get the range (lowest to highest note) of the tune within the collective singable range of a congregation of mixed sex. That is, to ensure that the sopranos can still reach the bottom note, while the basses can reach the top note. This overlap between the high and low voices is, I believe, referred to as the "common octave" (and, as I recall hearing in a radio programme, varies from country to country). This "window of singability" is rather small, and different tunes have different top and bottom notes in terms of doh, re,mi ... , so the key has to be adjusted fairly exactly to fit in the common octave, and a semitone can make the difference between 2 sharps (D) and 3 flats (Eb).

 

An individual singer, of course, has a greater range than a mixed congregation. So art songs intended for solo singers don't have to be in the common octave. But there is still a multiplicity of keys. The reason here is to get the range of the tune into the middle of the singer's voice range, and to make sure that extreme high or low notes are still singable. For this reason, art-song scores are available in (usually) 3 editions: for high voices (tenor/soprano), middle voices (baritone/alto) and low voices (bass) - with the same songs transposed to different keys.

 

Instruments generally have a greater range than even trained singers, but here, too, the choice of key for a particular piece may be important. Concertinas tend to get squeaky in the upper reaches, so if most of the tune is up there, it will sound better if transposed to a lower key. Each instrument sounds best when the bulk of the notes in a piece are in the middle range, with the proviso that the top and bottom notes must not "run off the end" of the instrument.

 

Apart from range, there's difficulty. This is not an issue for singers - they can sing in any key the composer or accompanist likes, as long as the top and bottom notes are reachable. But on many instruments, there are "easier" and "more difficult" keys.

Guitarists and fiddlers find C major and the "sharp" keys (G, D, A, E ...) easier than the "flat" keys. WInd players prefer "flat" keys. This is a result of how the notes are formed on the respective instruments.

On keyboards and chromatic free reeds, the beginner perceives a slight increase in difficulty, the more sharps or flats there are in the key signature, but nothing that practice will not remedy. In the case of the 20-button Anglo, on the other hand, two keys are simple, and the rest are simply impossible. On the 30-b Anglo (assuming you want harmonies), two keys are simple, two keys are manageable, and the rest are very difficult to impossible.

 

So why practise one tune in several keys on your concertina?

One reason would be that you have to accompany different singers. What will work for a high girl's voice will not work for a deep man's voice. In the folk-song repertoire, it's often enough to have 2 keys available - like the C and G of the two rows of the Anglo. A reasonably practised singer will be able to sing almost any song in one or other of those keys. (My mother, a soprano, sang most songs in G to a single-key autoharp in G, and as a baritone, I sing most songs in C, and the few that I can't manage in C, I can sing in G, so the Anglo suits me well as an accompaniment).

 

If your different singers are also accompanied by guitarists, you can forget the "flat" keys. C and G are fine with them, and if they want to play in D or A, you can find the chords quite easily on a 30-b Anglo.

 

If, however, your friends are wind players, and you want to stay with the Anglo, you'd better get an ex-Salvation Army Ab/Eb instrument, which was specifically for playing with brass bands.

 

In the case of an English or Duet, you can practice playing lots of sharp keys or lots of flat keys, depending on what instruments you usually mesh with.

 

In short, the only reasons for playing in all keys are a) to accommodate mixed-voice unison singing, as in church; b ) to play with classical players, who may be using a score with an extreme key signature, e.g. a hymn book.

 

Cheers,

John

[JimLucas]

In short, the only reasons for playing in all keys are a) to accommodate mixed-voice unison singing, as in church; b ) to play with classical players, who may be using a score with an extreme key signature, e.g. a hymn book.

The "

only

" reasons?

Oh no, there's at least one more: Because it's fun!!

[Fergus_fiddler]

I didn't know that CG anglo players can play in F and A Minor! thanks for that Alan! If I'm not mistaken, I knew that they can play in:

 

- Major keys: A, C, D and G

 

- Minor keys: Bm, Dm, Gm and Em

 

But those two are new to me! I love to play in F Major, I sometimes practise a few tunes in that key.

 

Fernando

 

Fer, the keys used in ITM are a bit different from 'usual' keys. I mean, you almost never play A minor in ITM as the relative minor of C, but the Dorian mode of G (1 sharp, thus) and likely; A major a lot of times is played in the Mixolydian mode of D (2 sharps).

 

With 2 sharps you play too the most found mode of E minor in ITM music, E dorian.

 

Takes a bit to understand the modal approach nstead of the tonal, but is very easy to understand the tunes afterwards.

 

Cheers,

 

Fer

[shaunw]

The English Concertina was designed to have the same range as a violin and to be a fully

chromatic orchestral instrument so like a violin it can be played in all keys including

all the strange variants of minor keys.

 

Anglo concertinas were meant to be folk instruments and to play in just a few keys,

but obviously the more buttons you have on an Anglo the more you can work around its

limitations. For an Anglo to have the same range as an English it would need to have

at least 48 buttons.

[JimLucas]

The English Concertina was designed to have the same range as a violin and to be a fully chromatic orchestral instrument so like a violin it can be played in all keys including all the strange variants of minor keys.

The very first concertina(s?) did not have the range of a violin, but one more closely matching the range of a flute.

 

I don't think there's any indication that the intent was ever specifically "orchestral". Instead, at the time it was enlarged to have the range of a violin, the violin was a popular parlor instrument, and it seems far more likely that home musicians were the target market. But then as now, popular songs and musical arrangements were just as "chromatic" as music written for large orchestras.

 

A side note: Your statement, "a fully chromatic orchestral instrument so like a violin it can be played in all keys including all the strange variants of minor keys," makes it sound as if "all the strange variants of minor keys" is something in addition to all major keys. But if an instrument can play in all the major keys, then that is the same as "fully chromatic", and it can't avoid being able to play "all the strange variants of minor keys".

 

Anglo concertinas were meant to be folk instruments...

Like the English concertina, the intent of the anglo seems to have been to play and accompany popular music of the day.

 

For an Anglo to have the same range as an English it would need to have at least 48 buttons.

That's completely wrong.

Since anglos can have two different notes on each button, then if all duplicates were eliminated, an anglo would need only 24 buttons to include all the notes on a 48-button English. But an equal-tempered English itself includes two duplicates in each octave (a total of six duplicates on a standard 48-button treble)... so in fact, 21 buttons would be enough.

[fernando]

Fernando, I would love to be able to know the modal approach! but don't know this story well... I know there is a lot of theory...

 

Maybe a few questions:

 

- How do you recognise the kind of minor mode of a tune?

 

- What are the minor modes used in ITM? Mixolydian and dorian? or there are more?

 

- Do you have a good way to recognise the key of a tune?

 

And this is for the english concertina players:

 

- In both sides of the concertina, the notes G# and Eb are repeated in all the octaves. There are keys that it is clear which one of the two sides to play, but some keys it is not clear at all, any guideline in this regard?

 

Fernando

Edited October 20, 2010 by fernando

[JimLucas]

- In both sides of the [English] concertina, the notes G# and Eb are repeated in all the octaves. There are keys that it is clear which one of the two sides to play, but some keys it is not clear at all, any guideline in this regard?

It's generally more useful to consider the buttons next to G and D to be G# and D#, but consider those next to A and E to be Ab and Eb. Then in any standard key signature from 3 flats (Eb major and its associated modes) to 4 sharps (E major and its modes) the standard choice is obvious, since it will be a note within that key signature. (E.g., there is an Eb in the key of Bb, but there is no D# in that key.)

 

The scales in all of these keys/modes share a simple pattern in which the scale alternates ends of the instrument, while all the notes on one end (every other note of the scale) alternate sides of the center line, forming a "walking" pattern "up" (or "down") the end.

 

In keys which have more flats than 3 or more sharps than 4 this pattern breaks down, but consistent (though different) patterns can also be found for these keys. In these keys at least one note needs to be "replaced" by its enharmonic (same pitch, but different name) equivalent, which will be on the opposite end of the instrument from that required by simple alternation. When this happens, it should also be reasonable to replace any of the duplicated notes with its enharmonic equivalent, if that results in a more comfortable fingering sequence. (It's a good idea, though, to keep any such changes consistent through all octaves.)

 

But then you should experiment with the different combinations to find a sequence for each scale that is comfortable for you.

 

As an example, the C# major scale is C#, D#, E#, F#, G#, A#, B#, and C# again. But E#, A# and B# don't exist in positions close to E, A and B; instead one needs to play F, Bb and C. Then the scale can be constructed as C#, D#, F, F#, G#, Bb, C, and C# again. But I like to use Eb instead of D#, so that the button sequence is C#, Eb, F, F#, G#, Bb, C, and C# again.

What does this gain me? A button sequence for the scale which has some nice internal repetition and symmetries. In playing an ascending octave scale, I first have two notes on one side of the instrument, then two on the other, and then that 4-button pattern repeats exactly, but "higher" on the keyboard. Describing it is clumsy, but in playing it, it's easy to feel the symmetries.

 

I wish you happy experimenting.

[shaunw]

The English Concertina was designed to have the same range as a violin and to be a fully chromatic orchestral instrument so like a violin it can be played in all keys including all the strange variants of minor keys.

The very first concertina(s?) did not have the range of a violin, but one more closely matching the range of a flute.

 

I don't think there's any indication that the intent was ever specifically "orchestral". Instead, at the time it was enlarged to have the range of a violin, the violin was a popular parlor instrument, and it seems far more likely that home musicians were the target market. But then as now, popular songs and musical arrangements were just as "chromatic" as music written for large orchestras.

 

A side note: Your statement, "a fully chromatic orchestral instrument so like a violin it can be played in all keys including all the strange variants of minor keys," makes it sound as if "all the strange variants of minor keys" is something in addition to all major keys. But if an instrument can play in all the major keys, then that is the same as "fully chromatic", and it can't avoid being able to play "all the strange variants of minor keys".

 

Anglo concertinas were meant to be folk instruments...

Like the English concertina, the intent of the anglo seems to have been to play and accompany popular music of the day.

 

For an Anglo to have the same range as an English it would need to have at least 48 buttons.

That's completely wrong.

Since anglos can have two different notes on each button, then if all duplicates were eliminated, an anglo would need only 24 buttons to include all the notes on a 48-button English. But an equal-tempered English itself includes two duplicates in each octave (a total of six duplicates on a standard 48-button treble)... so in fact, 21 buttons would be enough.

 

 

So isn't it strange that Anglos with 30 buttons are still much more limited than the English. In fact the EC was

designed, not to accompany popular songs of the day, but to be easy to learn to play from printed sheet music.

Wheatstone was interested in designing an orchestral instrument which could play classical music not a folk

instrument.

 

As far as I know there are no Rigondis who play the Anglo concertina. Do you know any great players of

classical music who play the Anglo concertina?