Francis O'Neill's Edison cylinders

[Dan Worrall]

Ok, we'll start with a caveat: there are no concertina recordings amongst those described in this topic. Francis O'Neill didn't seem to enjoy the concertina music of his day, perhaps because at that time it was being used to play popular ballroom dance music (polkas, schottisches, quadrilles and waltzes), more than the airs, jigs and reels of O'Neill's youth.

 

However, if you are a fan of O'Neill's classic Irish music collections, as I am, it may be of interest to you that many of O'Neill's own recordings of Chicago Irish musicians--used in the transcription of the tunes for his collection--have emerged, including recordings of a century and more in age of Patsy Touhy, Edward Cronin, Bernard Delany and more. For O'Neill fans, those names need no introduction. These recordings and some descriptions of them and the recordings' history are available for free at

http://archives.irishfest.com/dunn-family-collection/About.htm

 

Some of you are familiar with my own feeble work at making transcriptions of old concertina players, some of them made 15 years ago with slowed-down cassette tape recordings, and the latest ones made utilizing digital recordings and digital slow downer software. I am in utter awe of O'Neill, and especially his scribe, in their use of these scratchy cylinders to produce his masterpiece.

 

Enjoy!

Dan

[michael sam wild]

That's a superb link, thanks Dan! Cheers

Mike

[david_boveri]

i found that link a couple weeks ago. i had always wanted to hear the old chicago pipers that you see in all the pictures. i never thought i would! truly amazing stuff.

[wileydog]

Holy cow!! thanks!

[Geoff Wooff]

Some of you are familiar with my own feeble work at making transcriptions of old concertina players, some of them made 15 years ago with slowed-down cassette tape recordings, and the latest ones made utilizing digital recordings and digital slow downer software. I am in utter awe of O'Neill, and especially his scribe, in their use of these scratchy cylinders to produce his masterpiece.

 

Enjoy!

Dan

 

 

Hi Dan,

 

do you think O'Neill transcribed from his cylinder recordings ? I don't recall him mentioning that method of working in either of his books.

I would prefer to think that he and James O'Neill wrote down the tunes as they were being played (live) as was the custom of times before recording machines. Seamus Ennis did his collecting, for the most part, with pen and paper ( and a bicycle) in the 1940's.

 

I could imagine O'Neill learning the tunes by ear and then getting Seargent James O'Neill to write them out for the most part. But, why not, when the Edison Cylinder recorder came into their tool box, they would have used that for collecting too I suppose.

 

Thanks for bringing this facinating web site to our notice.

Best regards,

Geoff Wooff.

[Fergus_fiddler]

i found that link a couple weeks ago. i had always wanted to hear the old chicago pipers that you see in all the pictures. i never thought i would! truly amazing stuff.

 

Well, actually some of the stuff recorded in those years was already published - there're a couple of tracks featuring Patsy Tuhoey -:

 

http://www.properdistribution.com/latest-releases/album-details.php?pg=5&id=512

 

I bought this 4 cd set five years ago & I think it's amazing, how different was the music played in those times...

 

Anyway, the Dunn's page is quite impressive, thanks for the link!

[michael sam wild]

I have a very interesting book called The Scribe , about the two O'Neills and how they worked together. Chief O'Neill needed a transcriber though he was a good ear player on flute and could lilt tunes. The Scribe was a fiddler and musically literate working man and later another policeman.

Edited August 30, 2010 by michael sam wild

[Dan Worrall]

 

Hi Dan,

 

do you think O'Neill transcribed from his cylinder recordings ? I don't recall him mentioning that method of working in either of his books.

I would prefer to think that he and James O'Neill wrote down the tunes as they were being played (live) as was the custom of times before recording machines. Seamus Ennis did his collecting, for the most part, with pen and paper ( and a bicycle) in the 1940's.

 

I could imagine O'Neill learning the tunes by ear and then getting Seargent James O'Neill to write them out for the most part. But, why not, when the Edison Cylinder recorder came into their tool box, they would have used that for collecting too I suppose.

 

Thanks for bringing this facinating web site to our notice.

Best regards,

Geoff Wooff.

Hi Geoff,

 

There are three instances in Jackie Small's notes for these tunes where he points out that O'Neill's notation matches the recording on the cylinder. As he says:

"This is one of the instances where we can match a notation in ONeill with a sound recording of the same tune being played by the performer who contributed it."

 

I cannot imagine O'Neill not using the cylinders, once they were available. The reels are played rapidly, of course, and to get a note-for-note rendition of an unusual tune or setting, using a cylinder would allow one not to pester the musician to play it through a gazillion times. It is worth noting that he seems to have recorded (by cylinders) only the most prominent musicians among his sources...just the ones one would not wish to pester! And one of the tunes Small mentions as being identical to a cylinder recording is an air (Bean Dubh an Gleanna ). Hardly any accomplished musician who I can think of would play an air precisely the same way twice. The match indicates --just my opinion--that O'Neill used the cylinders.

 

It helps that he was a good musician himself, of course (rather, he and James O'Neill). No doubt most of the tunes in his collection were noted down by ear and flute playback (at least I think he played the flute; must check)---he wrote down many hundreds of tunes, after all---but given the task of noting someone like Patsy Touhey playing an eight-part piece, I think I'd opt for the cylinders!

 

As to why O'Neill didn't mention using the cylinders, I would suppose he might be slightly embarrassed by using a new-fangled invention in his work! He was very old school, and proud of it. By the way, he also never mentioned lifting a large number of tunes, note for note, from Ryan's Mammoth Collection (AKA Coles Fiddle Tunes, in another version lifted by someone else). Patrick Sky has documented that (I mentioned his detective work in the appendix of my "A Brief History of the Anglo Concertina in the US" at concertina.com). Such lifting was a commonplace occurrence those days...

 

By the way, Fergus, Patsy Touhey was recorded commercially in his day...hence the availability of his recordings elsewhere. To my knowledge, this is the only time the general collection of O'Neill's recordings has seen the light of day.

 

Cheers,

Dan

Edited August 30, 2010 by Dan Worrall

[jksiazek]

It's great to see so many of you finding the Dunn collection online already. Some of you may know that I'm the archivist at the Ward Irish Music Archives and have been working on this project for most of my time in the position. I'm very pleased that many in the traditional music community are listening to the recordings and finding the information interesting!

 

A couple of comments and clarifications from the discussions raised by Dan and Geoff--with the caveat that very little documentation of O'Neill's recording process survives and that no eye witnesses are alive today to verify or deny any of this. Also that much of this is from my own research with the collection, which I'll fully admit isn't authoritative by any means!

 

Jackie Small's comment about examples from the recordings matching sources from O'Neill: I may re-word this info on the website to be more clear. Jackie's showing that three examples from the cylinders (Banish Misfortune by Edward Cronin, and The Croppies March and Bean Dubh an Gleanna) match O'Neill's source musicians in Music of Ireland or Waifs and Strays of Gaelic Melody. So the entry of Banish Misfortune in MoI lists Cronin as the source. The recorded version doesn't necessarily match up with the written transcription, however.

 

As far as O'Neill using the cylinders to aid in the transcription process, keep in mind a couple of points. O'Neill didn't purchase his Edison phonograph until 1902, and from various sources, we know that the tune collecting process for MoI began in the late 1800s. O'Neill published MoI in 1903, so the chances of using the cylinders as a transcription aid are pretty low. Not impossible, but unlikely.

 

So why was O'Neill recording? A couple thoughts/points. We list the recordings from being made c.1904 since that's the year that O'Neill began dispersing his musical goods after his son, Rogers, died. This was to keep with his wife's wishes to not have music played in the house. But of course, he kept on playing music and sourcing tunes--just over at Sgt. Early's place, which is who we believe O'Neill passed his belongings onto (specifically his Edison machine). From a letter to a William Halpin in Ireland, we know that recording continued in the Early home up until at least 1912.

 

Touhey recorded himself profusely to fulfill mail orders--domestically in the States, as far as we know. Touhey either wasn't connected to folks in Ireland or didn't want to bother shipping cylinders across the sea. Enter O'Neill. The jist of O'Neill's letter to Halpin was such:

 

Your consignment of Touhey tunes were shipped just a week ago via United States Express Prepaid. Patsy announced the names himself so you have a record of his voice as well. They were made in Sergt. Early’s residence and now they are yours and I wish you luck with them.

 

As far as I can tell, O'Neill was recording these musicians and sending them out to various friends, at least some in Ireland. The other large batch of O'Neill recordings is at University College Cork in the Richard Henebry collection. O'Neill sent Henebry a batch in 1907 as a present. You can read about Henebry's reaction here: Shaskeen Reel

 

For more info on all this, I also recommend The Scribe by Caoimhin Mac Aoidh and the various O'Neill publications. Irish Folk Music is available through Google Books, as is Irish Minstrels and Musicians.

 

Again, much of this is based on my own research, and I look forward to seeing the Dunn collection for further study and discussion about O'Neill's legacy in Irish music.

 

And keep your eyes on the Dunn Family Collection site, as I'll be updating more in the manuscript section in the coming weeks!

 

All the best,

 

Jeff Ksiazek

Ward Irish Music Archives

[Guest HallelujahAl!]

Wow! What a wonderful resource!

[Dan Worrall]

 

A couple of comments and clarifications from the discussions raised by Dan and Geoff--with the caveat that very little documentation of O'Neill's recording process survives and that no eye witnesses are alive today to verify or deny any of this. Also that much of this is from my own research with the collection, which I'll fully admit isn't authoritative by any means!

 

Jackie Small's comment about examples from the recordings matching sources from O'Neill: I may re-word this info on the website to be more clear. Jackie's showing that three examples from the cylinders (Banish Misfortune by Edward Cronin, and The Croppies March and Bean Dubh an Gleanna) match O'Neill's source musicians in Music of Ireland or Waifs and Strays of Gaelic Melody. So the entry of Banish Misfortune in MoI lists Cronin as the source. The recorded version doesn't necessarily match up with the written transcription, however.

 

As far as O'Neill using the cylinders to aid in the transcription process, keep in mind a couple of points. O'Neill didn't purchase his Edison phonograph until 1902, and from various sources, we know that the tune collecting process for MoI began in the late 1800s. O'Neill published MoI in 1903, so the chances of using the cylinders as a transcription aid are pretty low. Not impossible, but unlikely.

 

Hi Jeff,

 

Kudos on the collection and your role with Wards in making it available. Bravo!!

 

I defer to your greater knowledge in interpreting his use of the cylinders. However, note that Dance Music of Ireland didn't come out until 1907, and contained some 140 new tunes not in 1903's Music of Ireland. The recording device came in time for DMoI, but not, as you point out, in time to be of much service for MoI. Either way, as I mentioned most tunes must have been notated the old fashioned way.

 

It is not surprising at all of course that someone like O'Neill would have copped on to the new recording technologies of the day (Edison cylinder devices became mass marketed by the 1880s). As he was (along with James O'Neill) a master transcriber, I would be amazed if he didn't try to use it for transcribing, once he had it. But I've been amazed many times before!! And of course, as you observed, whether he did or did not use them in such a way would be difficult to either prove or disprove a century later. Given that the O'Neills stripped away most grace notes in their quest to provide more or less standard settings, and then at times edited the tune even more under group discussions, a published transcription would never fully match a performance. Perhaps as you dig even further with your research you can tell us more.

 

But enough about incidentals, and the music of mere flute players. I see that Wards has a very large collection of Irish music and recordings. I cannot fully search the site---are there any early concertina materials in your collection?

 

Again, thanks for your work...great stuff!

 

Dan

[Dan Worrall]

 

A couple of comments and clarifications from the discussions raised by Dan and Geoff--with the caveat that very little documentation of O'Neill's recording process survives and that no eye witnesses are alive today to verify or deny any of this. Also that much of this is from my own research with the collection, which I'll fully admit isn't authoritative by any means!

 

Jackie Small's comment about examples from the recordings matching sources from O'Neill: I may re-word this info on the website to be more clear. Jackie's showing that three examples from the cylinders (Banish Misfortune by Edward Cronin, and The Croppies March and Bean Dubh an Gleanna) match O'Neill's source musicians in Music of Ireland or Waifs and Strays of Gaelic Melody. So the entry of Banish Misfortune in MoI lists Cronin as the source. The recorded version doesn't necessarily match up with the written transcription, however.

 

As far as O'Neill using the cylinders to aid in the transcription process, keep in mind a couple of points. O'Neill didn't purchase his Edison phonograph until 1902, and from various sources, we know that the tune collecting process for MoI began in the late 1800s. O'Neill published MoI in 1903, so the chances of using the cylinders as a transcription aid are pretty low. Not impossible, but unlikely.

 

Hi Jeff,

 

Kudos on the collection and your role with Wards in making it available. Bravo!!

 

I defer to your greater knowledge in interpreting his use of the cylinders. However, note that Dance Music of Ireland didn't come out until 1907, and contained some 140 new tunes not in 1903's Music of Ireland. The recording device came in time for DMoI, but not, as you point out, in time to be of much service for MoI. Either way, as I mentioned most tunes must have been notated the old fashioned way.

 

It is not surprising at all of course that someone like O'Neill would have copped on to the new recording technologies of the day (Edison cylinder devices became mass marketed by the 1880s). As he was (along with James O'Neill) a master transcriber, I would be amazed if he didn't try to use it for transcribing, once he had it. But I've been amazed many times before!! And of course, as you observed, whether he did or did not use them in such a way would be difficult to either prove or disprove a century later. Given that the O'Neills stripped away most grace notes in their quest to provide more or less standard settings, and then at times edited the tune even more under group discussions, a published transcription would never fully match a performance. Perhaps as you dig even further with your research you can tell us more.

 

But enough about incidentals, and the music of mere flute players. I see that Wards has a very large collection of Irish music and recordings. I cannot fully search the site---are there any early concertina materials in your collection?

 

Again, thanks for your work...great stuff!

 

Dan

 

Jeff,

 

I'm back again. The idea that O'Neill would or wouldn't use Edison cylinders captivated me....and since my other task today is painting bookshelves, I decided rather to turn to their contents! There are several positive, "smoking gun"-type indications that tunes transcribed from Edison cylinders are in 1903's MoI. One is from O'Neill's 1913 Irish minstrels and musicians, p. 431, and documents fully the source of the popular tune Lark in the Morning as being known only from, and being transcribed from, an Edison cylinder:

 

And, while we are discussing the subject of "special" tunes of ancient lineage, the occasion seems opportune to present to our readers "The Lark in the Morning," the rarest and certainly not the least interesting of its class, for it possesses marked individuality all its own.This tune was first published in O'Neill's Music of Ireland, and the story of its recovery and preservation needs no apology for its presentation here. James Carbray, a native of Quebec, but now a resident of Chicago, when studying music in his young days picked up some fine tunes from an old Kerry fiddler named Courtney, long settled in Canada. Many years later Mr. Carbray, amiable and accommodating gentleman that he is, recorded them on an Edison phonograph and forwarded the rolls to Sergt. James Early of the Chicago police force. It didn't take John McFadden long to memorize "The Lark in the Morning," and we may be sure it lost nothing of the bias or graces at his hands in transmission to Sergt. James O'Neill's notebook, and subsequently in its final setting herewith submitted. p. 431, Irish minstrels and musicians, 1913

 

So there can now be no question that Edison cylinders were involved in their transcription process, at least after they became available--no matter if a minor part of the overall process.

 

It seems that James Early--who as we see transcribed Lark from an Edison cylinder via John McFadden--had the Edison from an early time:

 

As a Christmas present which was sure to be appreciated, I forwarded in 1907 to Rev. Dr. Henebry, at Waterford, Ireland, a box of Edison phonograph records which Sergeant Early generously permitted me to select from his treasures. P. 113, Irish folk music, a fascinating hobby, 1910

 

It seems that Francis O'Neill was not only sending cylinders with Henebry, but perhaps trading them, because Henebry too was recording sources by this time on an Edison machine. As O'Neill recounted of Henebry's capture of tunes by a piper named Byrne:

 

Rev. Dr. Henebry and Father James K. Fielding, unaware of the existence of any passable piper in that part of the country, were astonished when they met him at Mooncoin in 1904. They took charge of their treasure at onceenthusiasts as they wereand we may be sure that the minstrel's temporal welfare, no less than his spiritual, received due consideration at their hands. Here was the opportunity of their lives to restore Irish music in all its traditional glory. With a real live piper and a good one, of a species thought to be extinct, right within their grasp, what may they not hope to accomplish in the cherished ambition of their lives?

 

After Byrne had regaled them with his ravishing strains to their heart's content, his tunes were recorded on an Edison phonographhis masterpiece, "Rakish Paddy," being in their opinion not inferior to "Barney" Delaney's, and he was forthwith installed in suitable quarters to teach his precious art to a class of aspiring youngsters. But the "call of the wild" was too much for the professor. The microbe of vagrancy was too active in his blood to allow him to submit to the restraint of settled residence, or the monotony of steady employment. So away he went to enjoy the pleasures of conviviality and change of scene, leaving his kind-hearted benefactors in a fit mood to appreciate the feelings of the man who undertook to domesticate wild ducks. p. 322, Irish minstrels and musicians

 

By the way, it was Delaney's version of Rakish Paddy, not Byrne's, that O'Neill used in MoI, so I don't know for sure that Henebry traded cylinders...but I suspect that he did.Some work on Henebry's memoirs might throw some more light on that.

 

Other Irish music collectors were using Edison cylinders in their tune collecting before 1902, and O'Neill was well aware of this. He recounted the tale of the Cork Pipers Club using an Edison to record an eccentric blind piper named Michael Sullivan, in Cork in 1899:

 

Obligingly he played his best tunes into an Edison phonograph, but a scowl instead of a smile overspread his handsome features when he heard the machine reproduce the tunes. Evidently regarding this as another instance of the devil's handiwork, he aimed several whacks of his cane at the enchanted box before he could be restrained. p, 266 of Irish Minstrels and Musicians

 

O'Neill states (p. 105 of Irish Folk Music) that he got the tune "Humours of Castle Lyons"--which is in MoI-- from a Dr. Hudson of the Cork Piper's Club, who got it from a piper named Sullivan's playing, which may well have been the piper Sullivan who was recorded by the Cork club in that Edison recording session in Ireland. Whether O'Neill obtained the cylinder itself or a transcription made by Hudson from it is not clear.

 

I hope some of this is useful to you in your continued research, Jeff. And now...what about those concertina materials in your collections?

 

Cheers,

Dan

Edited August 30, 2010 by Dan Worrall

[michael sam wild]

Fascinating stuff! Where can I buy a copy of the CD- The Francis O'Neill Cylinders?

[jksiazek]

All good points and passages, Dan. The "Lark in the Morning" bit is particularly interesting, considering in MoI that settings are credited to Carberry and James O'Neill. Also since it seems James' transcription was completed through McFadden's playing. It's apparent they were using the cylinder recordings at least for the transmission process of tune collecting and learning.

 

We presume that Early had O'Neill Edison phonograph from 1904, and that the machine that WIMA now possesses was O'Neill's. One of my aims in the next few months, time permitting, is to go through O'Neill's correspondence to see if recording stopped after Early's death in 1914.

 

As far as old concertina materials at WIMA, I'm afraid it's slim pickings! The Dunn collection has some of the earliest materials for traditional music; we have some early sheet music stretching back to the early 1800s. We are the institutional repository for Milwaukee Irish Fest, so we do have quite a bit material from musicians looking to play the fest from 1980 through the present, although we can't do much with that online due to copyright. Looking ahead, one of our goals is to get a catalog of our holdings available online within the next year or so.

 

 

--Jeff

[jksiazek]

Fascinating stuff! Where can I buy a copy of the CD- The Francis O'Neill Cylinders?

 

Michael, you can find a link to the CD here.

 

Thanks! -Jeff

[Dan Worrall]

The "Lark in the Morning" bit is particularly interesting, considering in MoI that settings are credited to Carberry and James O'Neill. Also since it seems James' transcription was completed through McFadden's playing. It's apparent they were using the cylinder recordings at least for the transmission process of tune collecting and learning.

 

Hi Jeff,

 

When I began transcribing William Kimber's sometimes complex arrangements in the early 1990s, I would do exactly what these fellows were doing. In my case, I would slow a cassette tape down by half (an octave) until I learned the tune. Then I would play it on my Anglo concertina very slowly, stopping to write down the notes for each phrase. I basically was acting as both McFadden (player) and Early (scribe), which meant that I was constantly picking up and setting down my Anglo, which was awkward. They had it much easier, working as a team.

 

I say this to emphasize --from the passage I quoted--that they were using the cylinders to make transcriptions, not just to collect sounds for sharing with colleagues...to state the obvious. Once the sonic capture of a tune from a source is done on a cylinder or a tape, taking a tune down from it is all one process, whether or not you have two guys working together or just one. The key is that someone has to learn to play it --or at very least hum it--before he himself or a second person writes down actual notes, a much slower part of the process. The cylinders allowed them to listen to the tune over and over, until they learned its notes and were ready to write it down (and of course Edison machines had speed controls that allowed one to slow the tune down--not sure they used that feature, but it would have been tempting). Lark in the Morning was transcribed from a cylinder recording.

 

Today, of course, we have wonderful bits of digital software that play the notes that one writes down, as a check on what you have written. Neither the O'Neill team, or myself in my earliest attempts at transcriptions of Kimber, had that luxury!

 

Cheers,

Dan

[michael sam wild]

Fascinating stuff! Where can I buy a copy of the CD- The Francis O'Neill Cylinders?

 

Michael, you can find a link to the CD here.

 

Thanks! -Jeff

 

 

Thanks Jeff that's nice.