Comping Anglo Chords to D dance tunes?

[Bob Lusk]

I consider myself an advanced beginner (slow fingers) on the Anglo although have messed around with them for years. On the other hand I played guitar, bouzouki,banjo and fiddle for years in dance bands, both Irish, English and American so I have some understanding of how this stuff works. On those instruments I don't have any problem playing along at a sessun or dance even if I don't have the tune memorized. I know that is frowned on by a lot of musicians but although I read, I am primarily an ear player and my experiance is that the audiance or dancers enjoy it a lot more when the music is coming from people that know how to jam, rather than those who have just memorized their tunes.

 

Change topic - on bluegrass banjo "Scruggs" style is relativly easy to learn and once you get past the beginning stages very easy to use to jam with. You can pretty much use a variety of right hand rolls to vary the sound and change your left hand chords easily if you know how to chord along. On the other hand "melodic" style bluegrass banjo plays the melody note for note- it has to be memorized exactly - and it takes a long time, if ever to be able to jam along in melodic style. Perhaps another analogy would be folk vs classical guitar or chord along styles on the piano vs classical style.

 

Origional topic - On a C/G concertina it is easy to chord along on songs and tunes in C&G using the root rows. What I have seen on Irish crossfingering has been memorizing note for note.

 

Payoff question - Do you ever get to the point where you can just play along in D (or G crossfingered)on Irish dance tunes even though you don't have the tune memorized note for note? I would expect to be able to use a combination of drones, chords and apreggios. Does anyone ever do this? Any tips?

 

As I'm writing this and reflecting, I imagine this would be a similar to providing a second part to another melody instrument if you were playing as a duo.

[hjcjones]

Firstly I would disagree that playing a melody (whether in Irish or any other music) necessarily means learning it "note for note", at least in the sense of carefully working out each note on the instrument. An experienced player on any instrument soon learns instinctively where to find the notes and builds up a toolkit of fingerings they can apply without conscious thought, and it is this skill which enables them to improvise or to busk along to tune they don't know exactly. I believe some of the methods taught for playing Irish music are built around learning specific fingerings so that you always know where to go on the keyboard for a specific note or phrase.

 

Anyone with this skill and a good ear for a tune should be able to join in, even playing the melody. Now bear in mind that in some circles this is frowned upon - I once got into a lengthy discussion here because of a mutual misunderstanding of what a session entails. For the other person, his session required people to know the tune thoroughly, and if it was new to them they should go away and learn it properly before joining in. In all the sessions I go to, joining in and jamming along is expected.

 

So yes, once you are familiar with the instrument it should be possible to play along to tunes you don't know note for note, provided this is acceptable in the circles you play in.

 

Your query also raises the knotty question of chording in Irish music. The purists will say you should not, but again if this is acceptable in the sessions you play in, then why not? The options you suggest are all possible, and as a guitarist you should already understand how to use these. The important thing, which applies to all session playing, is to listen to the other musicians and respond to what they are doing - so if the guitarist is holding a drone it might be appropriate for you to do so as well. There again, it might be more effective to play something different against it - it's whatever works at the time.

 

I play chordal-style English music and I don't find D major a particularly comfortable key to play in on a C/G (D min is another matter), which is why I, along with many others who play this style, also have a G/D instrument. However there are some players who manage perfectly well in D, so perhaps I'm just being lazy .

[Bob Lusk]

Thanks - I do understand about session etiquette issues and the variety of opinions. I guess I'm asking does it ever get possible to just relax and play along in D crossrow fingering the way it is to chord along on a guitar. The past few days I've been at a few friendly sessions where I have been trying to do this and am getting a hint of a feel of it.

[Daniel Hersh]

Thanks - I do understand about session etiquette issues and the variety of opinions. I guess I'm asking does it ever get possible to just relax and play along in D crossrow fingering the way it is to chord along on a guitar. The past few days I've been at a few friendly sessions where I have been trying to do this and am getting a hint of a feel of it.

Based on my own experience, I would say yes, it does get possible -- but the lack of a low D on a C/G Anglo makes the D chords sound a bit thin.

[hjcjones]

Bob, apologies if I misunderstood you. The short answer is, yes, it is perfectly possible to play along in D, all it takes is some familiarity with the instrument. As you already play several other instruments I'm sure you've experienced this before, when you reach the point where what was previously difficult and required conscious effort suddenly becomes easy and natural.

 

Reading between the lines, I get the impression that perhaps you're slightly intimidated by the thought of playing "across the rows" - this is very common among novice anglo (and melodeon) players, who get into the habit of thinking of the rows as being quite separate. The lack of any apparent logic to the accidental row doesn't help! However, think of the keyboard as a single entity. On most instruments, this comes naturally - on guitar, for example, you wouldn't think that if a tune is in D you must play it only on the D string, you'd use the whole fretboard.

 

I play across all three rows even when playing in C or G, because this offers me different choices. The anglo keyboard offers several alternative positions for most notes, just as most notes on the guitar can be found on different strings at different fret positions. Other keys force you to cross the rows to find certain notes, but there's no reason why that should be a problem. You just have to learn where those notes are - it's a little less intuitive than playing up and down the rows, but it soon comes with practice.

 

There are several different ways to play the D scale (and C and G scales for that matter) - work out how to play some alternative ways, and practice them, and work out the chords for both bellows directions (you may have to fudge these, since for some chords not all notes are available on both push and pull). Many chord shapes, even in C or G, often use notes from two or even three rows, but the stretch is usually less than playing chords on guitar. Keep playing, and in time it will become second nature.

 

If you want to learn to play melody in D, then get hold of one of the Irish-style tutor books or DVDs, which have established methods and recommended fingerings.

[Anglo-Irishman]

Payoff question - Do you ever get to the point where you can just play along in D (or G crossfingered)on Irish dance tunes even though you don't have the tune memorized note for note? I would expect to be able to use a combination of drones, chords and apreggios. Does anyone ever do this? Any tips?

 

Yes, I do!

My approach is the same as for chording along on guitar or 5-string banjo (which I also do). Just identify the I, IV, V and V7 chords for the keys you're likely to need, and their relative minor chords, and learn to form these chords on the LH buttons of your Anglo, like you did on the neck of the guitar.

For the key of D major, those chords are D, G, A, A7, Bm, Em and F#m. These are all available as complete triads, except for F#m, which is the least used. It is available partially, as F#-A on the draw or as A-C# on the press.

 

If we're talking about D dorian, of course, all you need is Dm and C, which are the same button pattern in different bellows directions!

 

You do have to learn the chord shapes by heart, but once you've got them, the feeling for when to use them is the same as with fretted instruments. And you can vary them rhythmically, e.g. playing "um-ta", or playing the full chord on an off-beat. Whatever you fancy. What the concetinas can do is play a chord accompaniment without the "rhythmic strait-jacket" of a strummed guitar.

 

Have fun,

Cheers,

John

[michael sam wild]

I'd say learn a lot of the common session tunes in G and D and then the other common keys for Irish music.On a C/G you will have to cross rows to get smooth ornaments anyway. Playing along the rows won't take you all the way nowadays. (Much as I revere some of the older players who do play as though it's 2 mouthorgans on 2 rows, it's my default position in any case .)

 

I wouldn't want to encourage anyone to go into a session thinking there is a short cut by adding a chord 'accompaniment' on a concertina. That wouldn't do much to help the session, anymore than a guitarist or bouzouki player or pianist who just plonks along witha 3 chord trick. Much of the time chords should be minimal with no 3rds notes and not many fancy chords like 7ths!

 

I agree with Howard that as you learn how to play you can 'busk' it somewhat as long as you listen sensitively and learn.

 

 

For English chord / tune playing do what you want and what sounds good and acceptable to the company. The rules seem to be evolving ( as melodeon players and duet players develop) but I'd still say keep it simple for dance music.

[Pippa]

Thanks - I do understand about session etiquette issues and the variety of opinions. I guess I'm asking does it ever get possible to just relax and play along in D crossrow fingering the way it is to chord along on a guitar. The past few days I've been at a few friendly sessions where I have been trying to do this and am getting a hint of a feel of it.

 

I'd say it's easy enough to learn chord patterns in D to the level where they become automatic, if you're just chording; in many ways, it's easier than if you're sticking to just one row, because your fingers don't get so cramped together. The push bottom A on the third row is a lovely tone on most of the C/G instruments I've tried, and there are a lot of places in a lot of tunes where having that A at the bottom of a D chord works, particularly if you space the whole chord out a bit so it doesn't get overpowering. The other chords you'd probably use most also fit well onto a 30-key C/G once you get familiar with the layout, though it helps to be a bit nifty with bellows changing so it doesn't notice. I used to play with a Tex-Mex band and often used to switch to accompaniment for a couple of verses of a song, including in D & E, so yes, once you're used to the patterns they can become automatic.

 

If you're accompanying Irish it might be tricky really listening to where the emphasis is at any one time in each tune - I play regularly in an Irish session where the tune would need a different kind of accompaniment each time through each phrase depending on which of its many internal rhythms the melody players are emphasising at any one time, it usually varies as the tune progresses and could be very easy to overpower or to straightjacket the tune into a more four-square rhythm pattern. It's particularly hard for someone accompanying / busking along on concertina because it can be hard to hear what, say, a solo fiddle is doing unless you have a lot of gaps between the chords in your own playing & play them very lightly - back to the arm muscles / control / bellows changing exercises again! Which is probably why I only ever play melody, it's a lot easier to play the tune quietly while learning it than to play chords behind it quietly enough.

 

Pippa

[Bob Lusk]

Thanks for all the suggestions. It helps me map out a plan of attack. I am continuing to work on all fronts but realize that I am going to need to put some time in figuring out where all the chords are in the key of D.

 

Is there any place online that gives crossrow fingerings to common dance tunes?

 

Bob

[tombilly]

Your original question relates to Irish trad music. Always bear in mind that this music is essentially melody driven - melody is the core and you need to know the melodies/ tunes well. The idea of just 'jamming along' with a few chords to tunes that you don't know doesn't sound great to me. I suppose it depends on who you play with and how accepting they are but I reckon you'd get short shrift in most sessions in Ireland. Better to sit out the tunes you don't know and join in on the others. Irish anglo players do play chords and doublenote in octaves but sparingly and to supplement the melody.

Edited August 8, 2010 by tombilly

[david_boveri]

yes, with time you can become comfortable enough with across the row playing to play counter melodies and chords in D to irish tunes you don't know. in chicago, i have often played with people that like to transpose tunes, necessitating the ability to play in multiple keys. at the places i go, we like to have singers, and we are usually encouraged to tastefully harmonize, and it's a toss up what key it's going to be in. also, sometimes at a session lead by high profile musicians will play the same tune in several keys (this is NOT common, so don't get worried). i've had to learn to transpose tunes between D, G, F, C, A, etc. i was even at a session a few weeks ago where i had to transpose a D tune DOWN into low G (it's easy once you get a hang of it). sometimes i end up learning a tune in one key at a session, only to find out that nobody really plays it in that key.

 

all in all i wouldn't necessarily say you NEED to learn to transpose like that, but i find it fun, and i seem to actually have a use for it. i only say it to illustrate that playing in multiple keys is definitely an attainable goal. so, yes, doing so for chords is much easier than doing so for melodies. it's all just a matter of knowing where the buttons are and knowing the chord progressions.

 

note: in no way am i trying to portray chicago as a formidable place, hostile to non-transposers or beginners. i am also not trying to portray myself as a great musician. i just like to play with people who are better than me, and they have all been nice enough to let me play with them.

Edited August 29, 2010 by david_boveri

[Michael Eskin]

If you are familiar with the tuning of the Uilleann pipes regulators, it is quite possible to provide "virtual regulators" on the anglo concertina emulating the tenor and baritone regs. You hear quite a bit of this in Noel Hill's playing.

 

For those not familiar with the tuning of the regs on a set of concert (D) pitch Uilleann pipes, here's a diagram of the notes on the tenor and baritone regulators:

 

 

On the anglo concertina, its quite straightforward to do the D chord F#/D slide to G chord G/D, then on to the D chord A/F# and G chord B/G, A minor chord C/A, emulating the sliding technique used on the pipes.

 

All techniques done on the left side:

 

F#/D - Pull, F# on G row, D on C row

G/D - Push, G on C row, D on G row

A/F# - Pull, F# on G row, A on C row

B/G - Push, G and B both on G row

C/A - Pull, C and A both on the G row

 

Of course, alternate fingerings in the other bellows direction are possible for all but the chords containing the F#, but these are generally the fingerings I'd use.

Edited August 29, 2010 by eskin

[Azalin]

Your original question relates to Irish trad music. Always bear in mind that this music is essentially melody driven - melody is the core and you need to know the melodies/ tunes well. The idea of just 'jamming along' with a few chords to tunes that you don't know doesn't sound great to me. I suppose it depends on who you play with and how accepting they are but I reckon you'd get short shrift in most sessions in Ireland. Better to sit out the tunes you don't know and join in on the others. Irish anglo players do play chords and doublenote in octaves but sparingly and to supplement the melody.

 

Yes, I'm one of those who get very irritated when someone is doing some 'free style' stuff on a melody. From my point of view, it's not about being open or closed, although some would like to portay it this way. For me, and other folks who have the same vision as me, irish music is about melody. I respect every melody, try to know its story, try to hear different versions of each of them to come up with something compatible. I work hard, practice hard at home, every day, to get my melodies better. Add a variation there, make some passage a bit more smooth there and there. It's constant work, to try to get the melodies the effort they deserve. We (the evil ones?) don't require people to have the exact same notes, we just want a common language in our music... variations are welcome, as long as they fit the melody and as long as the variations don't bring the tune to a point where it's barely recognizable. Also, some notes will clash. Some versions of tunes have C# instead of C nats, F naturals instead of F#, etc, and they really don't mixup. Someone with a good understand of irish music melodies will adapt on the spot.

 

What bugs me is that this is seen as being close minded, intolerant, etc... why not simply respect the local sessions and players where you're playing. In some places, it will be totally acceptable to heavily play chords and do some improvisation, and some other places it won't. Does that make the people with different tastes snobish or elitists? I won't sit down with someone who improvises or overplays chords and does lot of harmonies, the same as someone who would probably not eat at a sushi restaurant if he/she doesn't like seafood.

[Bob Lusk]

Interesting stuff - I love the Uillean pipe stuff - part of what attracted me to concertina was that it sounded a bit like small pipes. That was the kind of response I was hopeing to get from my questions.

 

Re the rest, I understand that Irish music is melody driven. More personally I come from a dance tradition. I started off playing guitar for Irish dances in places where we didn't use sound equipment or have pianos and a strong accompanimnet was welcome. I tended to play more drones, less 3rds quite naturally - Many times other guitarists criticized me for not putting in more chords, not understanding what I was doing. Now I usually use my cittern, which is tuned without 3rd's - and probably play more melody on it than accompaniment -keeps em guessing.

 

The whole "session etiquette" I've seen on many forums over the years. My own feeling is that if you want to play with a tight knit group of people for yourselves, do it as a public performance or in your own kitchen - don't call it an open session.

 

If anyone wants to come to a welcoming session we have one in Kingston, NY every Wed lunchtime 12-1 at a state historic site called the Senate House.

[michael sam wild]

I was in a session at Whitby in The Ship recently and there were two good guitarists both iusing plectra. One was up and down the neck with jazzy barre chords in standard tuning , That approach began to irritate us.The other was up and down the neck in DADGAD tuning in a sensitive way that enhanced the music..

[Bob Lusk]

The whole DADGAD sound though does come from jazz. As does the piano accompaniment used by a lot of Cape Breton's. Most jazz guitarists are vamping, cutting the chords short, not letting them ring. A lot of DADGAD stuff can be played in standard tuning using what rock guitarists call them "power chords". Probably sounds best on a modern plugged in acoustic like a Taylor or Martin cutaway. I'm hopelessly old fashioned - have a Martin D-35S which could drown out a 30 person accordion session if I let it. - But I try and use my power for good.

[JimLucas]

...have a Martin D-35S which could drown out a 30 person accordion session if I let it. - But I try and use my power for good.

A substitute for gas, oil, and maybe even wind power? Hmm.

[michael sam wild]

Bob, in Sarah McQuaid's book on DADGAD for Irish music, (pub Ossian 1995) she says it was invented by Davy Graham.( now sadly deceased). I wouldn't know about 'invention' but it was usually credited to him in folkie circles in the 60s

 

I've always understood he introduced it to get the 'modal' sound , I've never heard it claimed as a jazz style.

Edited September 4, 2010 by michael sam wild