Hornpipe

[Rod]

What is the generally accepted definition of a 'Hornpipe' in this day and age ? I am referring to the form of the instrumental music, not the dance steps. What is it that specifically differentiates a 'Hornpipe' from other similarly lively strict-tempo musical styles, such as Jigs and Reels ?

[Geoff Wooff]

What is the generally accepted definition of a 'Hornpipe' in this day and age ? I am referring to the form of the instrumental music, not the dance steps. What is it that specifically differentiates a 'Hornpipe' from other similarly lively strict-tempo musical styles, such as Jigs and Reels ?

 

It is the internal rhythm that differentiates a hornpipe from a reel or Strathspey or Rant. The Hornpipe is usually, these days, a four time tune that is usually written as a dotted 4/4.As it is played with differing amounts of internal rhythm emphasis depending on which musical tradition one follows, it should be noted that hornpipes are not always written 'dotted' and almost never played mathematically exactly as a dotted notation would suggest.

The speed of playing can also be very different from one area to another depending on the style of dance. Where used for solo 'clog dancing' the hornpipe might need to be played very slowly. In Ireland, when the hornpipe is played for a figure of a 'Set' it can be played at almost Reel speed.

Confusion can arise when compared to the playing of reels, which in some areas are not played fast and also have an element of 'dotted' rhythm. So the note lengths will not be 'even'. This is the main rhythmic device of pipers and is used because it is not generally possible to make a note louder or softer on a bagpipe, at will,to stress the beat. So by making some notes longer and some shorter the measure can be kept in place. It is like listening to an old clock with an uneven beat.

There are compositional differences between hornpipes and reels too, phrase lengths, melodic expansions etc.,but I would want to think about that before trying to descibe them.

 

The Jig is a three time tune that also has an uneven note length patern, in some traditions more than others. In a 6/8 jig there are two groups of three notes that one could ascribe note lengths for in a ratio of 5-2-3, 5-2-3 , the first note in each group being longer, the second quite short and the third somewhere in between. To hear this in action listen to jigs played for Rapper dancing in England , very fast and with almost no internal note length differences or the jig playing of the older Irish musicians, in County Clare (if you like) where the internal shuffling of note lengths is quite marked.

Geoff.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Geoff Wooff

[Boney]

The "swing" rhythm of a hornpipe means that if it's written like the first measure below, it's played more like the second:

 

 

Although the "swing" would often not be that strong...instead of a 2-1 ratio, maybe more like a 3-2, depending on who's playing it. There are other properties hornpipes tend to share. Some of them aren't so easy to put into words. They tend to have a "bouncy" feel to the melody. Each phrase tends to end on three strong quarter notes, often the same note (or some variation on that feel). Tunes in G are more likely than usual to have a C# in them, and tunes in D more likely to have a C-natural. Players often turn eighth-note pairs into triplets as a variation, often in long runs. And other stuff you start to get a feel for when you hear lots of them played.

[Chris Drinkwater]

Wonderful explanation, Geoff! Here's a link to a YouTube video of Sébastien Parcot playing the Baroque hornpipe Hole in the Wall aka the ATM, composed by Henry Purcell, on an English concertina.

 

Chris

[Rod]

What is the generally accepted definition of a 'Hornpipe' in this day and age ? I am referring to the form of the instrumental music, not the dance steps. What is it that specifically differentiates a 'Hornpipe' from other similarly lively strict-tempo musical styles, such as Jigs and Reels ?

 

It is the internal rhythm that differentiates a hornpipe from a reel or Strathspey or Rant. The Hornpipe is usually, these days, a four time tune that is usually written as a dotted 4/4.As it is played with differing amounts of internal rhythm emphasis depending on which musical tradition one follows, it should be noted that hornpipes are not always written 'dotted' and almost never played mathematically exactly as a dotted notation would suggest.

The speed of playing can also be very different from one area to another depending on the style of dance. Where used for solo 'clog dancing' the hornpipe might need to be played very slowly. In Ireland, when the hornpipe is played for a figure of a 'Set' it can be played at almost Reel speed.

Confusion can arise when compared to the playing of reels, which in some areas are not played fast and also have an element of 'dotted' rhythm. So the note lengths will not be 'even'. This is the main rhythmic device of pipers and is used because it is not generally possible to make a note louder or softer on a bagpipe, at will,to stress the beat. So by making some notes longer and some shorter the measure can be kept in place. It is like listening to an old clock with an uneven beat.

There are compositional differences between hornpipes and reels too, phrase lengths, melodic expansions etc.,but I would want to think about that before trying to descibe them.

 

The Jig is a three time tune that also has an uneven note length patern, in some traditions more than others. In a 6/8 jig there are two groups of three notes that one could ascribe note lengths for in a ratio of 5-2-3, 5-2-3 , the first note in each group being longer, the second quite short and the third somewhere in between. To hear this in action listen to jigs played for Rapper dancing in England , very fast and with almost no internal note length differences or the jig playing of the older Irish musicians, in County Clare (if you like) where the internal shuffling of note lengths is quite marked.

Geoff.

 

Many thanks Geoff for your explanation. I had guessed that the answer to my question was unlikely to be entirely straight forward, which makes the subject all the more fascinating !

Rod

[Geoff Wooff]

Rod,

you are very welcome and glad I was able to help, but I do not know if this explaination clears the muddy water completely. My wife was watching the Brazil/Chile soccer match in the ajoining room and giving me an animated commentary whilst I was trying to write, which did not help the thought processes.

I will think about this some more because your question is a very good one and I am sure there is more to defining the differences.

 

There are quite a few other dance tune forms which have similar relationships/ confusions; like the Fling of Ireland and Scotland and its relationship to the 'Scottish' as played/danced in France.

 

It is quite common in ITM these days for hornpipes to be played more like reels and vice versa, but it is in jig playing where the real test comes; in the combination of 3 time and 2 time, in the avoidance of inharmonic endings, but best I don't start on that one today.

 

Chris;

thanks for your 'thumbs up' too.

 

Happy music,

Geoff.

[michael sam wild]

It's interesting that, in England at least, hornpipes were originally played in 3/2 and some survived in the tradition in that timing. Now 3/2 is popular again. They seeme to have changed into 4/4 time in the early 1700s. They were popular stage acts and often danced by men and women dressed as sailors, Jackie Tar characters

 

the hornpipe as an instrument - 'stock and horn', pibcorn etc , with a reed may have lent itself to that rhythm. I saw one in Edinburgh museum that had belonged to Robbie Burns. I know they have been remade by modern makers.

 

 

I find 3/2 and 4/4 hornpipes morph into 6/8 and 9/8 jigs quite readily.

 

I also like undotted hornpipes as slightly faster,'tripping' reels, more a basic 8/8 actually They re a bit like stones skimmed on a lake.. Those are quite popular in Clare.

 

 

When I was a lad in the 50s in Manchester we were still dancing hornpipes as The Palais Glide which was a sort of scottische you could do in a gang with your arms round each others' shoulders , to tunes like Horsey Horsey Please Don't Stop. This was just before youngsters took up jiving and rock and roll.

 

 

What other 'hornpipes' have survived in popular culture ( in your countries)as opposed to revival music, dance and song.? I still sing Horsey Horsey, Keel Row, , Wee Willie Winkie, Wind the bobbin Up, and Paddy McGintey's Goat to my grandchildren, just as my parents and grandparents did to me. And they naturally clap and put steps to the tunes and songs.

Edited July 1, 2010 by michael sam wild

[Rod]

Rod,

you are very welcome and glad I was able to help, but I do not know if this explaination clears the muddy water completely. My wife was watching the Brazil/Chile soccer match in the ajoining room and giving me an animated commentary whilst I was trying to write, which did not help the thought processes.

I will think about this some more because your question is a very good one and I am sure there is more to defining the differences.

 

There are quite a few other dance tune forms which have similar relationships/ confusions; like the Fling of Ireland and Scotland and its relationship to the 'Scottish' as played/danced in France.

 

It is quite common in ITM these days for hornpipes to be played more like reels and vice versa, but it is in jig playing where the real test comes; in the combination of 3 time and 2 time, in the avoidance of inharmonic endings, but best I don't start on that one today.

 

Chris;

thanks for your 'thumbs up' too.

 

Happy music,

Geoff.

 

Geoff, at what stage in the process is someone who creates/composes a certain variety of Jig or Reel entitled to call it a 'Hornpipe', I wonder ? ( Back to the drawing board !)

Rod

[hjcjones]

What is the generally accepted definition of a 'Hornpipe' in this day and age ? I am referring to the form of the instrumental music, not the dance steps.

 

I don't think you can fully appreciate the differences in tempo and internal rhythm without having some knowledge of the dance. This is dance music, after all, even if that connection seems to have been lost by many modern ITM players.

 

Play for dancers and you'll soon begin to understand the differences.

[Marien]

It's interesting that, in England at least, hornpipes were originally played in 3/2 and some survived in the tradition in that timing. Now 3/2 is popular again. They seeme to have changed into 4/4 time in the early 1700s. They were popular stage acts and often danced by men and women dressed as sailors, Jackie Tar characters..

 

In 17th century there are a lot of slower jigs in the Netherlands (6/4). I also found quite a few 6/8 and 3/2 tunes. In the traditional dance world overhere people told me that many of them are supposed to be transformed into hornpipes or "horlepiep" as we call them.

[Anglo-Irishman]

 

What other 'hornpipes' have survived in popular culture ( in your countries)as opposed to revival music, dance and song.? I still sing Horsey Horsey, Keel Row, , Wee Willie Winkie, Wind the bobbin Up, and Paddy McGintey's Goat to my grandchildren, just as my parents and grandparents did to me. And they naturally clap and put steps to the tunes and songs.

 

 

Funny, I've always heard "The Keel Row" as a Strathspey ...

 

Strathspeys are in dotted rhythm too, but have a completely different feel. Perhaps because of the frequent snaps. The lyrics to "Keel Row" practically forces you (well, me anyway) to sing "laddie" (in "...that my laddie's in ...") as a snap. Or is it only the tempo that makes the difference?

 

Cheers,

John

[Geoff Wooff]

Geoff, at what stage in the process is someone who creates/composes a certain variety of Jig or Reel entitled to call it a 'Hornpipe', I wonder ? ( Back to the drawing board !)

Rod

 

Rod,

surely you are entitled to call your children what ever you like? If you can get your public to accept a new tune as belonging to a specific dance form then all is well.

Here in France, where 'Dance' is very popular I find I only have to play a new composition to our musician neighbours and they will try to dance to it. They will soon tell me what they think.

 

As an example of dance popularity among the traditional music followers here I give you this short story;

 

Very early on, after my wife and I had moved here (Limousin, central France), we found out that there was to be a 'Scene ouvert' (open stage), singers night (musical evening, bring your song book, instrument etc.). So, knowing hardly anyone, and speaking virtually no French

we arrived for the event with Uilleann pipes and fiddle.

When told it was our turn we gave the room ( a large village hall) a couple of Hornpipes ,just from where we were sitting. It was well into the second tune when I looked up only to see about 40 couples trying to dance a Scottish (the spelling as is used here), I was amazed never having seen such a thing before, and we lived in Clare for 15 years. I had to give Gabi a nudge, tell her to keep playing.

Of course, I do not mean that we had never played for dancing before or that sometimes two couples might spontaneously jump up and dance a "half set" during a session, but here musicians play ,for and, when people want to dance.

 

So, maybe we had inadvertently played our first Scottishes.

Cheers,

Geoff.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Geoff Wooff

[Rod]

Geoff, at what stage in the process is someone who creates/composes a certain variety of Jig or Reel entitled to call it a 'Hornpipe', I wonder ? ( Back to the drawing board !)

Rod

 

Rod,

surely you are entitled to call your children what ever you like? If you can get your public to accept a new tune as belonging to a specific dance form then all is well.

Here in France, where 'Dance' is very popular I find I only have to play a new composition to our musician neighbours and they will try to dance to it. They will soon tell me what they think.

 

As an example of dance popularity among the traditional music followers here I give you this short story;

 

Very early on, after my wife and I had moved here (Limousin, central France), we found out that there was to be a 'Scene ouvert' (open stage), singers night (musical evening, bring your song book, instrument etc.). So, knowing hardly anyone, and speaking virtually no French

we arrived for the event with Uilleann pipes and fiddle.

When told it was our turn we gave the room ( a large village hall) a couple of Hornpipes ,just from where we were sitting. It was well into the second tune when I looked up only to see about 40 couples trying to dance a Scottish (the spelling as is used here), I was amazed never having seen such a thing before, and we lived in Clare for 15 years. I had to give Gabi a nudge, tell her to keep playing.

Of course, I do not mean that we had never played for dancing before or that sometimes two couples might spontaneously jump up and dance a "half set" during a session, but here musicians play ,for and, when people want to dance.

 

So, maybe we had inadvertently played our first Scottishes.

Cheers,

Geoff.

 

Geoff,

My choice of the word 'entitled' was inappropriate. If a 'Hornpipe' is to all intents and purposes indistinguishable from a 'Schottische', ( or even a 'Jig' or a 'Reel' ), what the hell. All that matters is that the musicians, the listeners and the dancers are enjoying the experience, and let them call the music what they will. My little Dictionary of Music likens the 'Schottische' to the 'Polka'. I guess that all music is derivative in it's origins and probably requires no specific categorisation. Any music which lifts my spirits, gets my foot tapping and proves appropriate for my Anglo Concertina is good enough for me.

Rod

[Boney]

If a 'Hornpipe' is to all intents and purposes indistinguishable from a 'Schottische', ( or even a 'Jig' or a 'Reel' ), what the hell.

Er, is that what you're getting from this thread?

 

Any music which lifts my spirits, gets my foot tapping and proves appropriate for my Anglo Concertina is good enough for me.

Quite reasonable.

[Geoff Wooff]

[

Geoff,

My choice of the word 'entitled' was inappropriate. If a 'Hornpipe' is to all intents and purposes indistinguishable from a 'Schottische', ( or even a 'Jig' or a 'Reel' ), what the hell. All that matters is that the musicians, the listeners and the dancers are enjoying the experience, and let them call the music what they will. My little Dictionary of Music likens the 'Schottische' to the 'Polka'. I guess that all music is derivative in it's origins and probably requires no specific categorisation. Any music which lifts my spirits, gets my foot tapping and proves appropriate for my Anglo Concertina is good enough for me.

Rod

 

Ah, now I did not mean to imply that Hornpipe and schottische are close to indistinguishable but just that the dancers found the closest dance type that they knew to exercize themselves whilst we made the noises.

Little dictionaries can be dangerous in generalisations.

 

A person once asked me a one line question . I then spend two days asking that person questions before I gave him my one line reply. In order to give the best answer it is vital to know where the questioner is coming from.

 

As can be read in the recent 'Concertina for Mazurkas' thread, styles of dancing a 'type' of dance may differ from area to area or era to era and thus also the tunes.

 

The common practice in ITM is to join two or three tunes together in a set. This can usually be done spontaneously, especially with jigs

almost like a party game,; someone starts a jig and ,in turn, each person around the table starts the next one. It is possible to continue this game for as long as the gathering can remember more jigs.But this is just for fun amounst friends.

If however the same game is tried using Reels, it can be quickly found that there are Reels and there are Reels. Some will go together and some might really be hornpipes in disguise.

 

The other day I was trying to recall how to play the James Hill tune "The Hawk", tried playing it as a reel.... hmmm close but no Cigar, tried to adjust towards Strathspey then in the hornpipe direction... eventually it settled into its own very subtle slot. Is this a 'Rant'?

Well it is like these others but......

You see, it was a difficult question.

Geoff.

[michael sam wild]

A hornpipe played for a stepdance is quite different from the same tune played for Nottingham Swing or a rant step or a Clare Set.. the music doesn't mind it just wants playing.

 

 

 

 

 

John what is the step for a Strathspey that makes it distinctive with that 'snap'

Edited July 1, 2010 by michael sam wild

[Anglo-Irishman]

John what is the step for a Strathspey that makes it distinctive with that 'snap'

 

Michael,

Ask that one on a Scottish Country Dancing forum!

 

All the dancing I've ever done was ballroom dancing, so it's only waltzes, quicksteps, rumbas and tangos that I can access via the steps!

 

But I listened to Scottish Country Dance music on the radio intensively as a schoolboy, so I've got the musical feel of the reels and strathspeys pretty well hard-wired in my brain. My music teacher at primary school (in the Highlands) characterised the Strathspey as "long-short, long-short". That's the basic beat, and then triplets are often added, and the Scots snap, which you hear in a lot of Scottish music: a very short semiquaver (16th note) followed by a very long dotted quaver (eighth note). A very interesting figure in the Strathspey, because its "short-long" contrasts with the basic "long-short" beat.

 

One thing about dotted rhythms in regional dance music: They are often written with semiquavers and dotted quavers (or vice versa), but the relative times taken up by them are seldom precisely 3:1 (or 1:3). Even in classical singing lessons, I was taught to dwell on the dotted quaver, and just slip in the semiquaver - the whole pair fitting into the time value of a crotchet (4th note).

 

So the actual relative time spent on each of the two notes is up to your feeling as the performer, influenced by the conventions of the style of music you're playing. The semiquaver may be little more than a grace-note to the dotted quaver, which becomes almost a crotchet; or the the time ratio may be as close as 2:1.

Irish hornpipes are usually notated in pairs of quavers - the appellation "Hornpipe" tells the performer that these must be played as if dotted - to what extent, the practised player will know!

 

It's this effect that leads to the (very true) statement that you can't learn folk dance music from notation.

What some folkies don't realise is that you can't play classical music from the notation either. A large part of learning to read music is learning how to interpret things like "dotted pairs", and knowing what the composer must have been hearing in his head when he wrote them down. Musical notation, like writing, is only a rough guide to the acoustic phenomenon behind it. It's only when you know the language (musical or spoken) that you can use the notation without sounding odd!

 

Cheers,

John

[Anglo-Irishman]

What is the generally accepted definition of a 'Hornpipe' in this day and age ?

 

 

Rod,

My short answer would be that you don't define "The Hornpipe" - you listen to lots of hornpipes, form a paradigm of the hornpipe in your head, and play yours that way.

 

Cheers,

John