English or Anglo

[Hyp]

 

A clip? Why not! Let's spice up the thread a bit. I recorded these jigs as a test a few days ago. I don't do these tunes justice yet, but it's a work in progress. I hope it doesn't sound German or English, or I've been listening to the wrong people!

 

Tunes

 

 

I like that a lot. What is the tune and what Concertina are you playing?

 

BTW: I've now decided, that I will get an Anglo, mostly because of the Workshop/Summerschool thing. I just don't think that I will learn to play good enough to satisfy my needs by just learning from a book. Now I'll just have to wait for the money, get a concertina and finally get started.

 

As this is the third instrument I'll pick up (not counting drumlessons in groups and a single month of trumpet) I am curious how it will turn out. Thank you all for the 8 pages of thread (and what's probably to come, because I can't really see this coming to an end)

[Lester Bailey]

ITM is not a genre it is a living music which can still be added to, it is not a dead historical thing like English

folk.

You must go to different English sessions to me then, seems alive and well where I am :-)

 

I had always thought that Irish people had avoided the exclusive nastiness that sometimes ruins the English

folk music scene, I see now that they have not.

Don't recognise this either but this tread seems indicative of the ranting that always surrounds Irish music and its proponents (combatants)

[Dirge]

 

Don't recognise this either but this tread seems indicative of the ranting that always surrounds Irish music and its proponents (combatants)

 

Actually I don't think that's fair, Lester. I was expecting the vitriol to start flying and Paul/Ken to close it a few pages ago, but there has been a lot of give and take, and considerably less dogmatism/venom than usual. People have discussed rather than just announcing 'the truth' then throwing their toys out of the pram. I've found it quite refreshing.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Dirge

[Steve Mansfield]

ITM is not a genre it is a living music which can still be added to, it is not a dead historical thing like English

folk.

 

Sorry shaunw that's just plain wrong.

 

English music is in rude health and probably in better shape today than it's been for years.

 

Just look at

• the resurgence of the EDFSS,
• the explosion of talent around the BrightYoungFolk movement and Folkworks,
• the strength of the traditional music degree at Newcastle University,
• the huge wave of young bands coming up like Megson and Mawkin:Causley and Tyde and the Askews etc etc,
• the strength of the festival scene,
• the huge number of English sessions happening everywhere all over the country every week,
• the level of knowledge and historical interprepation and understanding that are being fostered by individuals and organisations all over the country,
• the living traditions of regional musics in areas such as East Anglia and around here in the North-West ...

and that's without even mentioning the Morris scene (rumours of who's demise were greatly exagerrated for political purposes), the buzzing ceilidh circuit, and the rump of the old-style folk clubs.

 

To misquote Ian Hislop, if English music is 'a dead historical thing', I'm a banana.

[Stiamh]

ITM belongs to the Irish people...

 

I'm afraid the cat's out of the bag, Shaun, and you aren't going to be able to put it back in.

 

Unless maybe you can convince Noel Hill to stop holding concertina schools in America. And all those famous Irish musicians from teaching at summer schools all over the world. And the organizers of the Willie Clancy school to reject applications from foreigners.

 

And all those musicians and bands from allowing their records to be sold outside Ireland, or accepting fees for performing abroad.

 

In fact you'd better go back in time to the early 1900s and tell all those Irish emigrants to the US not to bring their instruments with them. And those 1950s labourers in London not to invent the pub session.

 

You might as well pretend that Bach belongs to the Germans and only Germans have a right to an opinion as to how Bach should be played.

 

BTW, Brendan Breathnach opined in one of his books that the concertina was "the only musical instrument invented by an Englishman." Kind of shocking that the Irish should have adopted it, isn't it?

[Stiamh]

To misquote Ian Hislop, if English music is 'a dead historical thing', I'm a banana.

 

I'm sure it was Chris Wood who, in an interview in some magazine or other, quoted this joke:

 

Q. What's the difference between yogurt and English traditional music?

A. Yogurt is a living culture.

 

(I can repeat this because even if I'm a European mongrel, I was brought up in England and might as well claim to be English as anything else. Don't tell my friends but I have been a Morris musician)

Edited July 10, 2010 by ZiziAllaire

[Azalin]

Don't tell my friends but I have been a Morris musician)

 

I fainted when I read this, and I'm now slowly recovering

[Azalin]

I like that a lot. What is the tune and what Concertina are you playing?

 

Thanks! Those are two jigs, but I'm sorry to say I don't know the names. I got them from the informal playing of Mike Rafferty, Michael Rooney and June McCormack, a small session where they were just playing tunes together. If you want Hyp I could email you their clip, it's much much better than mine :-) I play the tunes on a 34 buttons C/G anglo, but not using any of the extra buttons, so they could theorically be played on a 26 buttons anglo (but not a 20, as the C# is very important in the second tune).

 

Thank you all for the 8 pages of thread (and what's probably to come, because I can't really see this coming to an end)

 

Well, I will be leaving on sunday for a week, so it will be one fewer source of controversial comments ;-)

[David Levine]

The first tune that Az played is The Green Hills of Woodford. The second is a Paddy O'Brien tune called The Fly in the Porter.

(I think)

[Geoff Wooff]

I like that a lot. What is the tune and what Concertina are you playing?

 

Thanks! Those are two jigs, but I'm sorry to say I don't know the names. I got them from the informal playing of Mike Rafferty, Michael Rooney and June McCormack, a small session where they were just playing tunes together. If you want Hyp I could email you their clip, it's much much better than mine :-) I play the tunes on a 34 buttons C/G anglo, but not using any of the extra buttons, so they could theorically be played on a 26 buttons anglo (but not a 20, as the C# is very important in the second tune).

 

Thank you all for the 8 pages of thread (and what's probably to come, because I can't really see this coming to an end)

 

Well, I will be leaving on sunday for a week, so it will be one fewer source of controversial comments ;-)

 

 

Thanks for the tunes clip Azalin,

nice playing indeed..... you're a real person behind the pseudonym ! A brave one at that, to put up for examination by such an expert panel.

 

Enjoy your week off.. it has been fun... but it is "back on yer heads lads, tea break's over" for me too.

Salut,

Geoff.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Geoff Wooff

[David Levine]

My work week is over. Now I get to be retired again. Suits me fine.

[Azalin]

Thanks for the tunes clip Azalin,

nice playing indeed..... you're a real person behind the pseudonym ! A brave one at that, to put up for examination by such an expert panel.

 

Enjoy your week off.. it has been fun... but it is "back on yer heads lads, tea break's over" for me too.

Salut,

Geoff.

 

Thanks Geoff. I don't mind posting a clip much because I'm my own worse critic, and I know this is half as good as I'd like it to be.

 

Many teachers from Willie week should be teaching at the Catskills festival, where I'm heading now. Should be fun!

 

I hope recording a clip won't make you too stressed out

 

Take care.

[shaunw]

ITM belongs to the Irish people...

 

I'm afraid the cat's out of the bag, Shaun, and you aren't going to be able to put it back in.

 

Unless maybe you can convince Noel Hill to stop holding concertina schools in America. And all those famous Irish musicians from teaching at summer schools all over the world. And the organizers of the Willie Clancy school to reject applications from foreigners.

 

And all those musicians and bands from allowing their records to be sold outside Ireland, or accepting fees for performing abroad.

 

In fact you'd better go back in time to the early 1900s and tell all those Irish emigrants to the US not to bring their instruments with them. And those 1950s labourers in London not to invent the pub session.

 

You might as well pretend that Bach belongs to the Germans and only Germans have a right to an opinion as to how Bach should be played.

 

BTW, Brendan Breathnach opined in one of his books that the concertina was "the only musical instrument invented by an Englishman." Kind of shocking that the Irish should have adopted it, isn't it?

[shaunw]

You are now misunderstanding what I said but it will be interesting to see how other posters here react to this.

Anyone can play ITM if they want to and they can play it on any instrument they want to use, even a synthesisier

or theramin. What they are not entitled to do is to make statements about how the music should be played.

I can play traditional Chinese music but I cannot go to China and tell them that they are not playing it properly.

So I would hope that all the people here who are saying that you cannot play ITM properly on an EC are Irish. If

they aren't then they should at least have the good manners to shut up.

 

The only law I would lay down is this, 'Anyone who is IRISH and playing ITM on any ordinary instrument is part of

ITM and they are also entitled to add to that tradition. Only time will tell if their style and their tunes will

be accepted. I am against all musical fascism, that is people who try to set themselves up as judges of what is ITM

and what isn't ITM.

 

However ITM means IRISH traditional music so while other people are welcome to play it, they mustn't try to take

it over and make decisions about what ITM is and how it should be played. People from other countries may be

accepted as adding to the tradition but that can only be by the invitation of the Irish people.

 

With regard to the concertina there seem to be people here who will not accept that ITM can be played on an EC

or a duet concertina and of course these were the instruments invented in England. The Anglo as we know it was

a German/English instrument and most of the melodians etc. were German. Most of the concertinas and melodians

that made their way into Ireland in the 19th century were cheap German instruments. Often they were the only

instruments that an impoverished population could afford.

 

By the way I have known some foreigners who went to summer schools in Ireland and who were met with hostility

from Irish musicians and grumbles about how other people were stealing our music. I hope this no longers

happens.

[shaunw]

ITM is not a genre it is a living music which can still be added to, it is not a dead historical thing like English

folk.

 

Sorry shaunw that's just plain wrong.

 

English music is in rude health and probably in better shape today than it's been for years.

 

Just look at

• the resurgence of the EDFSS,
• the explosion of talent around the BrightYoungFolk movement and Folkworks,
• the strength of the traditional music degree at Newcastle University,
• the huge wave of young bands coming up like Megson and Mawkin:Causley and Tyde and the Askews etc etc,
• the strength of the festival scene,
• the huge number of English sessions happening everywhere all over the country every week,
• the level of knowledge and historical interprepation and understanding that are being fostered by individuals and organisations all over the country,
• the living traditions of regional musics in areas such as East Anglia and around here in the North-West ...

and that's without even mentioning the Morris scene (rumours of who's demise were greatly exagerrated for political purposes), the buzzing ceilidh circuit, and the rump of the old-style folk clubs.

 

To misquote Ian Hislop, if English music is 'a dead historical thing', I'm a banana.

 

Steve thanks for the reply but let me illustrate the difference between ITM and English folk. A New Zealander I know went to

Ireland and heard some Irish music, she asked people where the folk clubs were. Of course they all laughed at her because

they found the idea of a folk club very funny. In Ireland they have Irish music, in England we have folk clubs. There are

competitions in England where you can go to sing songs but before they allow you to sing a song you must explain how it was

handed down to you and unless you learnt it from your grandfather who was a shepherd (or something similar) you won't be

allowed to take part.

 

Now of course there are many open minded and wonderful people on the English folk scene but there are also those who have

fixed and rigid ideas about what is allowable and what is not. The problem is that for example while Morris was danced back

in the 16th century and probably before that, we don't know how it was danced. So the Morris you see today is entirely made

up, it is an imaginary thing. English traditions were mostly destroyed by the industrial revolution. Many of the songs that are

accepted as folk were probably composed by commercial ballad writers from Covent Garden , nothing wrong with that of course.

However English folk is still infected with the 1950s communist takeover by people like Ewan MacColl and in some places it

is still pervaded by a semi religious atmosphere of this is the real music of the real people. Suppose someone in Ireland

wants to compose a tune, well they can do it and play it. Is it possible to compose a folk tune in England or do you have

to keep to tunes that are part of the accepted history. Of course Ewan MacColl got away with introducing pastiches of

folk songs into the music and many people now think these are genuine old English Folk songs.

 

The differences are that in Ireland people play tunes and you can easily slip in one of your own tunes and persuade people

to play it. Irish dancing is part of an unbroken tradition which may have changed over time but essentially it is an

unbroken tradition. In England people play folk music and this always raises the question, is this really folk. There are

people around who are all too willing to tell you that this isn't folk.

 

However please don't think I'm hostile to the English scene, I'm not, although it seems be more hostile towards musicians

and much more conscious about what is allowable and what is not.

[TomB-R]

You poor chap ShaunW, you seem to have been terribly, terribly unlucky since what you say is completely unrecognisable from the perspective of the Oxfordshire area where I play, or the festivals I go to.

 

Just a bit puzzled by one thing...... (apart from a bunch of others.)

 

Is it possible to compose a folk tune in England or do you have

to keep to tunes that are part of the accepted history?

 

If you don't know, and have to ask this, how come you're so dogmatic about, and critical of, the English scene?

[David Levine]

... but there are also those who have fixed and rigid ideas about what is allowable and what is not.

 

Shaun, I think you fit into this category. Brian Conway, Joanie Madden (silver flute), Bill Ochs (Jewish and All-Ireland), Pat Sky (piper, Native American Cherokee) and many other American musicians are perfectly capable of telling you a thing or two about Irish music. As Martin Hayes has often said, Irish music is global. Accept that and drop the chauvinism. Your attitude pisses people off and gives Irish music a bad name.

[Steve Mansfield]

You poor chap ShaunW, you seem to have been terribly, terribly unlucky since what you say is completely unrecognisable from the perspective of the North-West area where I play, or the festivals I go to.