English or Anglo

[Stiamh]

Well, my last comment was based on the posted clip, and had nothing to do with the current discussion. I simply said the music in the posted clip wasn't even ITM, and people were asking why.

 

Did you listen to the end? The last tune was that reel of Richard Dwyer's, The Fox on the Town. I'd be quite surprised if Edel, Kate, Gearoid and all the other players you mentioned objected to that performance.

[Azalin]

Well, my last comment was based on the posted clip, and had nothing to do with the current discussion. I simply said the music in the posted clip wasn't even ITM, and people were asking why.

 

Did you listen to the end? The last tune was that reel of Richard Dwyer's, The Fox on the Town. I'd be quite surprised if Edel, Kate, Gearoid and all the other players you mentioned objected to that performance.

 

Well, if any of the concertina players next week do *anything* similar to what's happening at 1:08 in the clip (just to take one example) then I'll buy you two pints. I learned the last tune under the name 'The Trip to London' from this lady, tune, but thanks for the info I didn't know it was a Richard Dwyer's tune.

 

PS: Zizi, listen carefully to the phrasing in the english concertina clip... now imagine a fiddle player playing very fast tunes and never changing bow direction... this is pretty much how it sounds to my ears, not you?

Edited July 7, 2010 by Azalin

[Dave Weinstein]

PS: Zizi, listen carefully to the phrasing in the english concertina clip... now imagine a fiddle player playing very fast tunes and never changing bow direction... this is pretty much how it sounds to my ears, not you?

 

That's the point.

 

You keep trying to make the English Concertina into an erzatz Anglo. It isn't, any more than the Anglo is an imitation flute.

 

You don't expect a fiddler to play to the breathing patterns of the whistle players, why do you keep insisting the EC player play to the bellows practices of an Anglo player? They are different instruments, they will have different approaches to the same music.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Dave Weinstein

[shaunw]

We can all agree that playing anglo for ITM is a good choice because it's a common instrument and makes workshops, material etc more accessible, the rest is a useless debate.

 

Yep. Agreed. See you later. Some people get it and some people don't. Useless debate. Because if you can't hear the difference, nothing said will matter. And if you can hear the difference then that's all that matters. It will be obvious. So I'll grant you the debate on points. But, as I am sure you know, winning the debate isn't worth a corn hole in a cow turd.

 

Have fun. End of thread for me.

 

It really does not matter what you say to some of the people posting in this thread. Anglo for ITM is a good choice but only if you

feel that you are incapable of learning to read music. It seems that you can play ITM on a flute, a piano, a guitar, a violin, a

cello, a harp, a diatonic accordion, a chromatic accordion, a blues harmonica, a chromatic harmonica, a penny whistle or even a church

organ. However the two instruments you can never play ITM on are an EC and a Duet Concertina.

 

They never tell you why this is so. If you give them a recording of ITM on an EC they will tell you that it is not ITM as though

they are really qualified to judge. They have some mystical knowledge of Irish music that enables them to hear the difference.

 

If you tell them you can't really play jazz standards on an Anglo they will tell you about Boer musicians who can play jazz

on 40 button Anglos. They will say anything no matter how irrational or bizarre. They will say you are only talking about

'theory' while they are wise people who are talking about 'practice'.

 

This isn't a debate, it started as an innocent attempt to provide an answer to a question. What can I use to play both ITM

and jazz standards. Many people made constructive contributions. They pointed out that if you want to go to summer schools

you need to have an Anglo, a very good point that everyone accepts. However we then have to deal with the crazies who insist

that an EC or a Duet concertina are the only instruments known to man in the whole history of the world which cannot be

used to play ITM.

 

I will play ITM on any instrument I choose, even a computer synthesizer, if I want to. There is no Irish Music Council

which decides on these things and anyone who thinks they are qualified to make these decisions or can hear the difference

needs help. You can't hear the difference because there is no difference. Anyone who thinks there is a difference to hear

just doesn't understand Irish Music. My family has played ITM on a strange assortment of instruments for generations and

they never felt the need to ask if these were approved instruments and they never heard the difference. They were just

Irish people playing Irish tunes. None of them had even heard of the concertina.

 

Still this thread has been fun but some people are very strange. I know I am.

[Azalin]

You keep trying to make the English Concertina into an erzatz Anglo. It isn't, any more than the Anglo is an imitation flute.

 

You don't expect a fiddler to play to the breathing patterns of the whistle players, why do you keep insisting the EC player play to the bellows practices of an Anglo player? They are different instruments, they will have different approaches to the same music.

 

Ah, but you'd be surprised at how many ITM musicians try to make their instrument sound as much similar to another totally different instrument, even though they are world apart. A fiddler that plays a lot with flute players might have similar phrasing and even simulate "breath stops" up to a point, although I am not an expert on fiddle playing so I'm won't venture too far there. But many anglo players try to simulate pipes, and I'm sure other examples can be found.

 

So yes, from my point of view, any instrument will share some basic phrasing to ITM, no matter what the instrument is... and this recording doesn't. Now, it's an amazing recording and if I could play half as good as this guy one day, I'd be happy, no matter if his phrasing is not ITM.

 

(I'd say the beginning of that recording, a jig I think, is very close and it's my favorite part!)

[Azalin]

It really does not matter what you say to some of the people posting in this thread. Anglo for ITM is a good choice but only if you

feel that you are incapable of learning to read music.

 

Well, this is one of the funniest thing I've read about anglos, thanks for the laugh!

[Geoff Wooff]

Wow!!

Hasn't this all been such fun?

I have been interested to here suggestions that we would have to play to the standard of Edel Fox etc., to be accepted as "being able to play Irish music on another type of concertina.

I have just been listening to my old records of concertina players, those made during the 1974 winter field trip to Ireland by Neil Wayne and John Tams. That older generation just picked up their playing abilities as they went along, getting an idea from a relative or neighbour, sitting in Hughdie Doohan's kitchen listening to him playing through "O'Neill's 1001" untill he found a tune they liked.

 

I don't think it very fair to compare the playing abilities of the latest generation with these earlier recordings. When all were amateur musicians in the sense that they had to "milk their own cows" so to speak. Therefore I also do not think it fair to compare, or expect anybody who has not had access to the type of "hot housing" that these youngster get, to be able to come anywhere near that standard.

 

I was sent a recording,recently, of a young piper, one of my customers. All his family play, siblings, parents, aunts and uncles etc.His grandfather was Tommy McCarthy. This young man's playing was nothing short of miraculous in that he had clawed back the beautifull styles from previous generations. I could hear the sounds of the great pipers like Clancy and Doran melded into one wonderfull listening experience.

My point is that,I feel, it has taken three generations of total dedication to bring this "piping" back from the grave, with the aid of the teaching and the instrument making.

 

If there had been a tradition of playing EC in Ireland and if a young person started, with lessons, from the age of 6 or 7 then we might expect to hear playing of an equal standard.

 

With regard to my comments about other temperaments; I will endeavour to start a fresh topic and post some sound samples soon.

Best regards,

Geoff.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Geoff Wooff

[Jonathan Taylor]

 

PS: Zizi, listen carefully to the phrasing in the english concertina clip... now imagine a fiddle player playing very fast tunes and never changing bow direction... this is pretty much how it sounds to my ears, not you?

 

Now imagine an uilleann piper playing very fast tunes and never changing airflow direction...

[David Levine]

If there had been a tradition of playing EC in Ireland and if a young person started, with lessons, from the age of 6 or 7 then we might expect to hear playing of an equal standard.

 

Very good point. Makes me wonder....

[david_boveri]

sorry to join this thread so late, but i think that there is something to be said for tradition.

 

it is very difficult to go against it! if one is very committed to learning irish traditional music, then i think one should think very carefully about not choosing anglo. it is hard enough to learn anglo, and hard enough to find teachers. now, imagine no books, no teachers, no hints and insights from the rare player you find at a session or festival.

 

anyone who says it can't be done on english, however, is wrong. the reason the anglo is popular is because that is what was available. the cheap german concertinas of yesteryear were the instruments they played. my great aunt played the concertina (before she moved to the states, and switched to accordion because she couldn't find a concertina). her daughter, my grandmother's cousin, picked up my concertina with amazement once, and said to me, "oh my god! it's made of real wood!"

 

there are no nice old irish ladies who will pick up an english concertina and hesitantly squeeze out a tune that they learned from their parents as a child. it is a frustrating thing to play folk music and not have that sort of cultural history to draw on! i know this, because i play the silver flute, and i learned it explicitly to play irish music. one strong reason that new instruments get adopted is from necessity, and there seems to me to be no necessity to use an english concertina instead, unless of course you happen to have one, and can't afford an anglo.

 

i say this all not because i am an anglo player. i am an anglo player because of this. ironically, i also play the silver flute in irish music, which is contrary to my advice on choosing anglo. why do i do play silver flute? because this choice was handed down to me through tradition, from my uncle. i know how difficult it can be to play an instrument that is not the de facto type for a genre. the only reason i've stuck with the silver flute is because i have someone i can call up at any point, and ask arcane things like, "so, when you are playing a note that repeats 3 time on a row, once on the start of the next beat, and jumps the octave, which ones do you tongue?" because, see, there are all sorts of nitpicky things in getting traditional music right, that i cannot look up online, buy in a book, or get in a dvd if i want to do them on the silver flute. this is because sometimes, if you try it the way they do it on the wooden flute, it sounds wrong on the silver flute (and vice versa). i have to ask my uncle for so many things. i do my rolls how he taught me (i'd never have figured out the B roll he does), construct my embouchoure how he taught me, and go for the tone colors that i have learned from a lifetime of listening to him play. it is a very thin line you have to walk to play irish music on the silver flute: too far in one direction it sounds too "classical," too far in another and the music doesn't sound right either.

 

so, if one were to ask me, should i play the silver flute in irish music, or choose wooden flute, instead? i would say that it can be done, but that i don't recommend choosing the silver flute unless 1) you already have one, or are already planning on getting one, or 2) you have your heart set on it so bad, that a wooden one won't do. i know it can be done on the silver flute, and that it can be done well, but how do you reconstruct an entire cultural tradition's worth of techniques and styles all by yourself? the reason people like my uncle and joanie madden play the silver flute is because they couldn't get a wooden flute in the united states at that point in history that was good enough for them. i play one because i grew up thinking it was the only type of flute irish musicians played. i can play wooden flute now, and i can switch easily back and forth, but only one flute feels like home.

 

so, that same perspective is what i take to the anglo vs. english debate for irish music. unless you have a strong reason to commit years of your life to it, why bother? i don't relish the thought of figuring out how to do cuts and cranns on the english. it can't be easy. it also can't be easy to recreate the feel and sound of anglo playing, either. it certainly isn't easy on the silver flute, emulating the wooden flute (but sounds great when you do it). in fact, it is just much easier to play irish flute style on the wooden flute, because it evolved around the limitations and strengths of that instrument. i would have struggled so much less if i had started on wooden flute instead. thinking of it, i remember hours and hours and hours of struggling just to get my flute to sound irish, when if i had played an "irish flute," it would have sounded irish right away. the same sort of pointlessly extra work would go into figuring out how to get the english to sound how a traditional ear would expect. for anglo players, countless have struggled before us, so why start at square one? i'd rather benefit from the years of work that tim collins or noel hill or micheal o raghallaigh and the people they all learned from put into the anglo, than have to start doing it all myself. just think of how many hours you are behind on the english! just by picking up an anglo in irish music, you have dozens and dozens of years of experience to draw on by finding the right teacher, book, or musician.

 

if the english concertina had been in homes like that of my great aunt, that is probably the concertina i would be playing today. but it wasn't. so i don't. just like i actually play the "wrong" flute for irish music, because that is what was tradition in my family. so, tradition is important. i think anyone should stick with anglo for irish music, unless if they are so passionate about another type of concertina that they are willing to do what ever it takes to go without the cultural knowledge that is available to benefit from. thinking english is good enough isn't going to cut it... if you know you have the passion it takes to try and start to develop a new tradition, then i'd say english would be the best choice.

[Geoff Wooff]

sorry to join this thread so late, but i think that there is something to be said for tradition.

 

it is very difficult to go against it! if one is very committed to learning irish traditional music, then i think one should think very carefully about not choosing anglo. it is hard enough to learn anglo, and hard enough to find teachers. now, imagine no books, no teachers, no hints and insights from the rare player you find at a session or festival.

 

anyone who says it can't be done on english, however, is wrong. the reason the anglo is popular is because that is what was available. the cheap german concertinas of yesteryear were the instruments they played. my great aunt played the concertina (before she moved to the states, and switched to accordion because she couldn't find a concertina). her daughter, my grandmother's cousin, picked up my concertina with amazement once, and said to me, "oh my god! it's made of real wood!"

 

there are no nice old irish ladies who will pick up an english concertina and hesitantly squeeze out a tune that they learned from their parents as a child. it is a frustrating thing to play folk music and not have that sort of cultural history to draw on! i know this, because i play the silver flute, and i learned it explicitly to play irish music. one strong reason that new instruments get adopted is from necessity, and there seems to me to be no necessity to use an english concertina instead, unless of course you happen to have one, and can't afford an anglo.

 

i say this all not because i am an anglo player. i am an anglo player because of this. ironically, i also play the silver flute in irish music, which is contrary to my advice on choosing anglo. why do i do play silver flute? because this choice was handed down to me through tradition, from my uncle. i know how difficult it can be to play an instrument that is not the de facto type for a genre. the only reason i've stuck with the silver flute is because i have someone i can call up at any point, and ask arcane things like, "so, when you are playing a note that repeats 3 time on a row, once on the start of the next beat, and jumps the octave, which ones do you tongue?" because, see, there are all sorts of nitpicky things in getting traditional music right, that i cannot look up online, buy in a book, or get in a dvd if i want to do them on the silver flute. this is because sometimes, if you try it the way they do it on the wooden flute, it sounds wrong on the silver flute (and vice versa). i have to ask my uncle for so many things. i do my rolls how he taught me (i'd never have figured out the B roll he does), construct my embouchoure how he taught me, and go for the tone colors that i have learned from a lifetime of listening to him play. it is a very thin line you have to walk to play irish music on the silver flute: too far in one direction it sounds too "classical," too far in another and the music doesn't sound right either.

 

so, if one were to ask me, should i play the silver flute in irish music, or choose wooden flute, instead? i would say that it can be done, but that i don't recommend choosing the silver flute unless 1) you already have one, or are already planning on getting one, or 2) you have your heart set on it so bad, that a wooden one won't do. i know it can be done on the silver flute, and that it can be done well, but how do you reconstruct an entire cultural tradition's worth of techniques and styles all by yourself? the reason people like my uncle and joanie madden play the silver flute is because they couldn't get a wooden flute in the united states at that point in history that was good enough for them. i play one because i grew up thinking it was the only type of flute irish musicians played. i can play wooden flute now, and i can switch easily back and forth, but only one flute feels like home.

 

so, that same perspective is what i take to the anglo vs. english debate for irish music. unless you have a strong reason to commit years of your life to it, why bother? i don't relish the thought of figuring out how to do cuts and cranns on the english. it can't be easy. it also can't be easy to recreate the feel and sound of anglo playing, either. it certainly isn't easy on the silver flute, emulating the wooden flute (but sounds great when you do it). in fact, it is just much easier to play irish flute style on the wooden flute, because it evolved around the limitations and strengths of that instrument. i would have struggled so much less if i had started on wooden flute instead. thinking of it, i remember hours and hours and hours of struggling just to get my flute to sound irish, when if i had played an "irish flute," it would have sounded irish right away. the same sort of pointlessly extra work would go into figuring out how to get the english to sound how a traditional ear would expect. for anglo players, countless have struggled before us, so why start at square one? i'd rather benefit from the years of work that tim collins or noel hill or micheal o raghallaigh and the people they all learned from put into the anglo, than have to start doing it all myself. just think of how many hours you are behind on the english! just by picking up an anglo in irish music, you have dozens and dozens of years of experience to draw on by finding the right teacher, book, or musician.

 

if the english concertina had been in homes like that of my great aunt, that is probably the concertina i would be playing today. but it wasn't. so i don't. just like i actually play the "wrong" flute for irish music, because that is what was tradition in my family. so, tradition is important. i think anyone should stick with anglo for irish music, unless if they are so passionate about another type of concertina that they are willing to do what ever it takes to go without the cultural knowledge that is available to benefit from. thinking english is good enough isn't going to cut it... if you know you have the passion it takes to try and start to develop a new tradition, then i'd say english would be the best choice.

 

Exactly David !

 

A lovely phrase comes to mind, one sometimes encounters in Ireland, when asking directions to somewhere " Oh, I would not start from here".

 

My hat comes of to those, like Dave Levine, who had the courage to change instruments when it was wise to do so.

 

A word about why I continue to try to play ITM on the EC; yes for all those reasons stated by David about his silver flute playing, because I use the EC as a tool to join in, to learn, to "session", because I do not play the Concert pitch pipes and I am an even worse flute player.

But I enjoy playing other types of music too, like HYP, so I continue... sorry if it offends anyone. Just play up loud, like most people do, flat out, no dynamics, and you will not hear me then.

Now where did I stash that Trombone?

Geoff.

[m3838]

if the english concertina had been in homes like that of my great aunt, that is probably the concertina i would be playing today. but it wasn't. so i don't.

It's a good point. The caveat:

Cheap Anglo of yesteryear was 20 button.

Expensive Anglos of today are 30+ buttons, with emphasis on NOT push/pulling from necessity, but playing smooth, alternating between left and right sides, playing it just like an English.

In such a case, with professors of mathematics playing ITM learned from the fake books in Pubs, it doesn't really matter anymore.

In one of the previous discussions it was disclosed that vast majority of amateurs playing Irish music, do so on their Englishes. Vast majority of recording artists do so with their Anglos.

Having access to tuition may dictate your choice. The music depends solely on your talent, not on opinion of entrenched Jury, especially derailed one.

P.S.

It's like trying to prove that pink cheeked dude in sparkling white hat, playing Country on his $30K guitar has anything to do with tradition.

[Stiamh]

Yes Geoff this thread is entertaining to read. I think that everybody is absolutely correct - from their own point of view.

 

And of course that point of view, not being mine, is necessarily wrong.

 

I jest. I very much like the recent thoughtful posts by david_b and Geoff W, putting things into a perspective a bit broader than "the concertina in Irish music after Noel Hill burst on the scene".

 

On the issue of it being a useless debate, see line 1 above. But I often witness discussions of Irish music on forums such as this one rapidly spiral down into mutual incomprehension from two completely opposing corners, in one of which are ranged the pure-drop true believers, with folkies and the rest of the world in the other corner. (To me it seems that this particular discussion has been held back from the brink by some well-argued contributions.)

 

Now I am usually in the pure-drop corner, but I've been a folkie too, and I can see why the misunderstandings arise. Why the true believers often appear so intolerant, and again why the folkies just don't get it. I have thought of writing a long post about to try to explain what is happening (or even a book?) but I haven't the time, and anyway I think it would be useless. Carry on, everybody.

[Azalin]

Yes, being sometimes an 'extremist' on the ITM side, I had a taste of my own medicine when I heard the comment about not reading music being the only real reason why you'd play an anglo! Now I understand how the people at the other end of the scope must feel ;-)

 

Thanks for the last few enlighting points. What if english concertinas would be have been in people's homes instead of anglos. I wonder if concertina music would be very different or not, and I am pretty convinced it would sound 'irish' to my ears today.

 

I tried to taunt people who play ITM on english to send clips to no avail. Geoff, you're my only hope. If you have time, could I get a sample of your music, here or by private email? Pretty please!

 

Meanwhile, I'll have to admit I was wrong thinking english concertinas could be technically limited to play irish music. In perspective, I'd even say it's stupid to think so! My new theory is that many english concertina players who play ITM don't apply themselves enough to play irish music in an interesting way. This is my new extremist point of view, yeah!

[Azalin]

the reason people like my uncle and joanie madden play the silver flute is because they couldn't get a wooden flute in the united states at that point in history that was good enough for them.

 

I've heard that at the beginning it was very hard for her to be accepted in some 'irish music' circles because of the silver flute... but when people heard her play 'as well' as a wooden flute, they started accepting her. I'm not sure if it's true or not, but this is what I heard a few years ago!

[tony]

 

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2010 by tony

[Azalin]

Tony,

 

Thanks so much! I am quite impressed with 'montychiton' in clips 3 and 4... I tried to listen without watching and honnestly I can say I'd be happy playing like that!

 

I also noticed that in all these clips, players don't push and pull much. I am convinced (maybe again with my extremist point of view) that if english concertinas would have been in irish houses instead of anglos, people would still have learned to push and pull a bit more to emulate bowing on the fiddle a bit more. But, as always, I might be totally wrong ;-)

[m3838]

people would still have learned to push and pull a bit more to emulate bowing on the fiddle a bit more.

 

Not really. If EC had different ergonomics, then yes. Besides tiring your thumb pulling stresses very small screws holding thumb loop and weakens the threads, gradually pulling the screws out of their holes. My Tenor's thumb loop is lose, for example.

Your idea that EC players don't apply themselves to ITM enough is good. Add to that AC players as well.