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Posting photos, sound files and videos .Etiquette


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What do people feel about posting images and files of other people playing. I've heard some performers ask that they aren't put on facebook, YouTube etc.

 

 

I suppose it can prove awkward to be recorded in some situations but it happens in newspaers and on TV all the time .

 

I tend to ask permission first if I have a contacthuh.gif

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What do people feel about posting images and files of other people playing. I've heard some performers ask that they aren't put on facebook, YouTube etc.

 

 

I suppose it can prove awkward to be recorded in some situations but it happens in newspaers and on TV all the time .

 

I tend to ask permission first if I have a contacthuh.gif

 

Well, my experience with irish sessions is that whenever you want to record or take a picture or video of musicians, you should always ask first. I have heard very good musicians being put off by some people who simply dropped a recording machine on a table without asking: "Would you please get that thing off the table" I heard. I think pictures and videos are even more intrusive and should be asked with no exception, unless you're with friends.

 

That would be the first step, of course asking them afterward if they mind being put on Facebook etc would be the second step.

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I would ask first unless it seemed obvious not to do so, or, if there are too many (and unidentified) people to ask in a photo or recording, I'd at least use a private link with a password for whomever.

 

BUT --

 

I 'favorited' a video on YouTube once and it automatically showed up on my facebook page. I didn't even know about it until later. (Um... it happened to be one of yours, Michael, the 'Miss Hamilton' one. I don't remember if I left it in the lineup, if you wish, I'll check and remove it. :o ) I redid my facebook settings so that wouldn't happen again, though at times I still deliberately add a video when there's a 'share this' link in order to do so.

 

Since, though, online, when there is a 'share this' link, and I have the option to send something to facebook (knowingly) or twitter, if I do so, I DON'T ask permission, because I figure the person opted for that feature.

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Well, my experience with irish sessions is that whenever you want to record or take a picture or video of musicians, you should always ask first.

 

My experience of English sessions is the opposite - the use of digital recorders is widespread as an aide-memoire for all those great tunes you can never remember the next morning, and passes without comment. Likewise photos. It's never occurred to me to ask permission, or to expect to be asked. To be honest, if someone were to object (in a session as opposed to a formal performance) I would consider them to be rather too full of themselves.

 

I still have valued recordings on cassette of some great sessions (including a truly memorable weekend playing with Shetland legends Aly Bain, Tom Anderson and Peerie Willie Johnson) as well as folk club performances by top artists (for which I did ask permission, which was invariably given).

 

When I was a regular performer at Chelmsford Folk Club in the 1970s one of the audience members would invariably set up his reel-to-reel tape recorder and record the whole evening. These tapes are now in the Essex County Record Office and are an important record of musical activity in the area.

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For me it depends on the situation sometimes you can't ask everyone...like with sessions, which I judge on a situation by situation basis.

 

But if its for a 'paid for' gig or event I try to ask first/afterwards. (In which case I usually burn a copy to give to the person for their own records for them. Then if they've said no but in the future want to put it up then they can.)

Or I at least give opportunity if I do put it up for the person in question to see it and if they say 'don't like it being up there' I'll take it down.

Both situations have happened before but I won't mention who the artists were (so I speak from experience).

 

(But places like youtube are great places to 'advertise' musicians.

Especially if your wondering 'ooh should I go see this performer(s)/band(s)' and then you find a youtube video and think, yes I will.)

Edited by LDT
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My experience of English sessions is the opposite - the use of digital recorders is widespread as an aide-memoire for all those great tunes you can never remember the next morning

 

Interesting. With irish music, in festivals you'd be expected to be able to record anytime you want, because it's part of the deal. But getting in a pub where friends are playing with each other, having a pint, and to start to record without asking is definitely rude. I am very surprised (and skeptical) that it would be different in any other type of "jam" session. But then, rude people with lack of etiquette usually don't know they lack etiquette, so it's not a problem for them :-)

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Wendy, I was suprised that stuff on YouTube got onto Facebook like that.

 

I usually ask if people are in small groups in a public spce. If it's a performance I always ask first and what they want to do about displaying it.

 

In a small session a stranger could be obtrusive and it's the implication that they don't have to get to know people first. With big sessions I tend to do what Howard says, but I do object to people who come in ostentatiously recording and sticking video cameras in people's faces..

 

I have some great old reel to reel recordings which were graciously allowed , off my first Grundig portable from the 60s. It died when Bert Jansch tipped a pint over it sadly when his guitar hit it ( by accident I must add just after he sang Backwaterside at our flat in Sheffield!).

 

I still wonder how many embarrassing situations get recorded and put upcool.gif

Edited by michael sam wild
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I would ask first unless it seemed obvious not to do so, or, if there are too many (and unidentified) people to ask in a photo or recording, I'd at least use a private link with a password for whomever.

 

BUT --

 

I 'favorited' a video on YouTube once and it automatically showed up on my facebook page. I didn't even know about it until later. (Um... it happened to be one of yours, Michael, the 'Miss Hamilton' one. I don't remember if I left it in the lineup, if you wish, I'll check and remove it. :o ) I redid my facebook settings so that wouldn't happen again, though at times I still deliberately add a video when there's a 'share this' link in order to do so.

 

Since, though, online, when there is a 'share this' link, and I have the option to send something to facebook (knowingly) or twitter, if I do so, I DON'T ask permission, because I figure the person opted for that feature.

Facebook and likely most of the other social networking gizmos are inherently leaky. Even if you change your settings to limit who sees the stuff you post, your "friends" can share stuff they've gotten from you without your knowing it. If you don't want it to get out, keep it off the web. If it ain't yours, ask first. The Facebook people were on the radio the other day here and were remarkably dodgy about what they were really doing. They've seen the money in this for them and aren't willing to let go of it for the sake of people's privacy.

Dana

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I usually record stuff coz

a) I want to try playing along with the video/recording later (practice)

B) I want to share a sample of an enjoyable experience that will hopefully make others want to go see/hear/listen/enjoy themselves.

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Interesting. With irish music, in festivals you'd be expected to be able to record anytime you want, because it's part of the deal.

 

Now I'd expect the exact opposite - I would not expect to be permitted to record a performance at a UK festival or any other formal event. I certainly wouldn't consider it "part of the deal". At large concerts recording and photography are often prohibited. At a small folk club it might not be a problem but in that case I would definitely obtain the artist's permission.

 

But getting in a pub where friends are playing with each other, having a pint, and to start to record without asking is definitely rude.

 

Why? When you're among friends surely this is exactly the sort of situation where you shouldn't need to ask, or expect to be asked. Why should it be a problem?

 

I'm writing from the perspective of a musician participating in a session, and I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that was also the basis of Mike's OP. I can see it might be slightly different if someone just walks off the street and starts setting up mics, but whether its an audience member or a participating musician, if they're recording unobtrusively I still don't see why it should be a problem.

 

I am very surprised (and skeptical) that it would be different in any other type of "jam" session.

 

Different sessions have different customs. It appears to be commonplace at the English music sessions I go to that a number of people carry small tape or now digital recorders, and sometimes there is as much discussion and comparison of them as there is of each other's instruments. I don't believe anyone thinks anything of it - I've certainly never seen anyone object. The purpose for recording is usually to collect a tune rather than a performance.

 

As for Facebook, it's just part of modern life that anything you do in public could conceivably be published. Of course, this was always the case, but the internet has made it easier and therefore more likely. However it was always possible that you might end up in a photograph in the following year's festival programme, or that your playing might be heard in a TV documentary (such as the one on Bracknell Folk Festival which Ian Anderson has recently posted on the internet). If you're unhappy with this then don't go out in public.

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Interesting. With irish music, in festivals you'd be expected to be able to record anytime you want, because it's part of the deal.

 

Now I'd expect the exact opposite - I would not expect to be permitted to record a performance at a UK festival or any other formal event. I certainly wouldn't consider it "part of the deal". At large concerts recording and photography are often prohibited. At a small folk club it might not be a problem but in that case I would definitely obtain the artist's permission.

 

Well, yes, we have different experiences of festivals and sessions.. most of the irish music festivals I go at, it's more about informal sessions all across town in dozen different pub than actual 'live performances'. I think this is typical irish, because I know there are festivals like Lorient where it's pretty much all live performances.

 

But getting in a pub where friends are playing with each other, having a pint, and to start to record without asking is definitely rude.

 

Why? When you're among friends surely this is exactly the sort of situation where you shouldn't need to ask, or expect to be asked. Why should it be a problem?

 

Well, again, miscommunication. When I say where friends are playing with each other, I mean THEY are friends to each other, not you. Let's say you get into a pub and you've never seen the people before, or seen them but not really friends with them.

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I don't believe anyone thinks anything of it - I've certainly never seen anyone object.

 

Most of them would not. They would be irritated, but they wouldn't start objecting. Unless you do something very, very stupid, many irish musicians won't say anything and be polite, although they might think you're a total a$$ for doing something innetical (can't spell this!). But anyhow this isn't something you can really explain, if you can't understand why "getting in a pub and start recording a session of total strangers without asking" is rude, then you won't get it from any explanation. But just remember what I said, maybe one day it could be helpful ;-)

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Wendy, I was suprised that stuff on YouTube got onto Facebook like that................................................

 

Anyway... I removed it from my wall at facebook, but it remains on my 'favorites' list at YouTube.

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Azalin, I think we're talking about very different situations. When I go to a session I go as a musician, to participate. If the other musicians are strangers to begin with, they are soon friends - that's the nature of sessions. However, the English music scene is a fairly small world and I've been around a while, so there's a good chance I'll already know a few of the musicians, at least by sight.

 

At many of these sessions it is commonplace for the musicians themselves to carry recorders. It's considered quite normal behaviour. Besides, it would be totally impractical for everybody to seek permission from all the other players in a crowded session, especially when it is a shifting population with musicians coming and going.

 

I don't think this attitude differs much between festival fringe pub sessions and other sessions - they're usually the same people anyway. Of course, all sessions are different, and when joining any strange session it is essential to judge the 'culture' of that particular session, and not just as it relates to recording.

 

If I were to stumble across a session unexpectedly then my attitude would of course be different. For a start, it is unlikely that I would want to record it for its own sake, unless it was something exceptional - in which case I would certainly ask permission. If they were playing a tune I particularly wanted to learn then that presents a dilemma - I can hardly interrupt them to ask permission to record it, neither can I ask them to play it again. In those circumstances I think I would simply record it, discreetly of course so the musicians wouldn't be disturbed.

 

Nevertheless, I remain of the opinion that if you are going to do something in public, whether it's playing music or kicking a ball around in a park, then you have to accept that your actions may be of interest to other people, who may want to take photos or recordings (perhaps pursuing their own hobbies, or perhaps simply because it's a novelty to them). They have just as much right to do this as you have to play your music.

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I have been following the string of discussion with some interest.

I worked in the entertainment business most of my life (started when I was 10). 35 years ago BI (before Internet) you would hustle your photos and flyers and cassettes for gigs around where ever and to whomever you could. Then there was video and everyone wanted a video photo of you and a performance. It was all very costly and time consuming.

Then along comes this thing called the internet and voila! Instant promotional outlet and it is virtually free! Facebook and Youtube are natural venues for self-promotion. It is the easiest way to share your music and build an audience and community of musicians. And the networking value is priceless. Prior to this the only way I was aware of other free reed musicians was playing at festivals or sessions. And since folk and traditional were not my specialty my world was minimized. Now I have discovered and am in touch with some of the most interesting and astounding people and musicians from all over the world.

If the concertina is to survive I will share all the music and sounds people want. Let them copy me and play what I do as much as possible. Hell I'll be dead one day and someone has to keep it going.

rss

Edited by Randy Stein
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Nevertheless, I remain of the opinion that if you are going to do something in public, whether it's playing music or kicking a ball around in a park, then you have to accept that your actions may be of interest to other people, who may want to take photos or recordings (perhaps pursuing their own hobbies, or perhaps simply because it's a novelty to them). They have just as much right to do this as you have to play your music.

This "public" issue is an interesting one. It is hard to argue that things you do in public places are somehow off limits to others in that same space. However, it was just a few years ago when public space was essentially local space. Yes others could listen to you play, but only those in earshot. You could choose your venue and the sort of audience you were playing around if not for. With the advent of Cell phone video and MP3 recorders, all of a sudden the nice safe local playing space can turn into a world concert, whether you are wanting that or not. At our local sessions, recorders are welcome since they are intended to spread the learning of tunes and that is how many of the local musicians hear new tunes.

They are entirely too informal for most of us to want broadcast over the internet. They are sessions, not concerts. What do we have to do to regain the local nature of "public"? Or must we simply be resigned to the fact that a generation of people obsessed with themselves has decided nobody needs that any more?

We used to have a very nice session for many years that had it's share of drop in's from their concert tours, and generally a few people just starting out , then The local TV and Newspaper decided it should be broadcast far and wide, and very shortly it became a madhouse cacophony of starting players and unbearable to anyone who actually cared about the music. ( they left ) It wasn't the beginners we minded. We were all beginners once. It was the change in the nature of public from local to something much larger.

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Social network sites have changed everything. As well as being a source of information, the internet has become a means of communication and sharing. In many ways that's a good thing, in some ways perhaps not. The simple fact is that this is the world we now live in, and anything you do in public (and possibly in private) could end up on YouTube.

 

So far as music is concerned, does it really matter? Most recordings, photos and videos of sessions will only be of interest to those who were there, and are usually only put online for their benefit. Perhaps if you are a professional musician, especially one signed to a possessive record company, there may be a problem, but for the rest of us (unless we were with someone we shouldn't be, or had told the boss we were sick) does it really matter? I can't understand why anyone would seriously object to being recorded, provided the act of recording wasn't intrusive.

 

In theory, performers own the copyright in their performance and so could prevent it from being broadcast - in reality that's easier said than done. If someone doesn't want their performance on the internet then of course that should be respected. But we live in a world where everyone has the means to disseminate information, including recordings and photos, and where a great many people wish to do so. We have to just live with that.

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Azalin, I think we're talking about very different situations. When I go to a session I go as a musician, to participate. If the other musicians are strangers to begin with, they are soon friends - that's the nature of sessions. However, the English music scene is a fairly small world and I've been around a while, so there's a good chance I'll already know a few of the musicians, at least by sight.

 

Yes, I can see we're in different situations entirely, so something acceptable in your 'world' might not be in 'mine'. There are actually hundreds and hundreds of musicians who play irish music as a hobby, and although you remember faces etc from other festivals, you definitely don't end up being friends with all of them. When I go to the upstate New York festival in East Durham, New York, I recognize many musicians from the New York area, the Chicago area, the Baltimore one and then the irish ones. They are also the top notch players in the new generation in my opinion and for some reason I'd never think of dropping a recording machine on the table if they were playing, but also would not think of joining them. I'm not sure how it is in english music, but in irish music there are definitely circonstances where you simply won't join a session. If the 'level' of playing is far beyond yours, and if you feel you'll simply drag them down, you won't sit with them and instead listen and enjoy their tunes. I would ask them if I can record, then I'd have load of stuff to work on the following years.

 

But I know many in irish music and other genres don't see it this way, and any public session should be accessible. This is definitely arguable on both sides, and depends on your personality and the way you see life. Many irish musicians at the festivals I go to have CDs and are profesionnal players and will sometimes sit together in a public place and play a few tunes. I would never think of joining them. Would they mind if I did? If I sit down and begin starting sets, most of them will... if I sit down and listen and play along the tunes I know very well (and wait until being asked to start something), some of them might find this behaviour acceptable (this is what I've been doing for many years now), some might still be pissed off.

 

Quality ITM music and be spoiled easily by a few musicians who have very bad phrasing, timing, etc, and one musician, to my ears, can destroy the whole music of the session (when it's a relatively small session) and there's nothing I can do about it, I simply won't enjoy it.

 

From this perspective, in ITM world, you don't approach the music as being 100% open and free for all. But this type of 'hierarchy' pisses lot of people off. It's often seen as snobbery or elitism.

 

This, pointing to your initial comment about seeing a bunch of musicians refusing to be recorded as being snobs, I think you're part of the group who believes public sessions should be 100% available and welcoming, and it's actually fine, there is no definitive rule.

 

My friends and I mostly play private sessions in kitchens now to solve this problem. It's pretty much the only way. But I know I am diverging from the initial subject, although I think they are somehow linked to a certain degree, so I'll stop now :-)

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