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Bandoneons for concertinists?


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I've always found tango rather interesting, though not terribly familiar to me, and it's hard not to be impressed by Astor Piazzolla's musical stylings, so the bandoneon has always held a certain appeal for me. I've mucked around with English concertina and melodeon in years past, and am having a ton of fun with my Elise Hayden Duet concertina these days, and my interest in the bandoneon has been on the rise as of late, particularly when my internet explorings turned up the vague possibilities of a Hayden bandoneon.

 

I noted that Harry Geuns (who also makes concertinas) has some B/C system 48-button hybrid-reed bandoneons for $900ish, but that's a little more than I'm willing to spend to muck around with something in a new system, and Geuns hasn't gotten to the point of deciding to make a run of Haydens yet. In the meantime, since I'd been vaguely considering picking up a cheap Anglo concertina, I figured I might as well split the difference between getting an Anglo box and getting a unisonoric bandoneon and just get some bisonoric bandoneon-ish instrument. I found what appears to be a decent deal, $400 shipped on a Morbidoni "concertina" of unknown bisonoric fingering system. Morbidoni seems to have a good rep for piano accordions, and I figured I'd take the risk on this unknown quantity: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150448955532&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:US:1123

 

That leads me to my most immediate question: how interchangeable are the big square Germanic concertinas (Chemnitzers, and other such things played in Wisconsin) with true bandoneons? I just picked this up because it was affordable and from an apparently decent maker, so a bit apprehensive as to whether some features of its tuning or sound quality make it uniquely qualified for oom-pah alone.

 

I won't be able to lay hands on it until August, when I return from Afghanistan, but am looking forward to trying it out, mainly to play slow, dark, organ-like sort of stuff. The bisonoric bit will be tricky; Anglo concertinas always confused me, though for some reason I had no trouble with 1-row melodeon.

 

In any case, if anyone has some general guidance on mucking around with bandoneons (or big, square concertinas in general), I'd appreciate any insight on how these differ in execution, things to watch for, and in general helpful gouge.

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A core 4 buttons in at least middle (main) row should be exactly like Anglo concertina, only in "exotic" key. Like A, or Bb.

The offset of other rows may be reversed, I don't remember, but possible to figure out.

Other buttons are added to have accidentals and reversals, so if you are going to learn the keyboard as is, you may have very difficult time.

But if you approach it as 1 row melodeon at a time, then adding more complex tunes, with more complex accompaniment - it may be easier. You'll understand the logic behind the additions etc. What you have is a Chemnitzer. Outside of those 4 or even 3 core buttons on each side additions are very different from Bandoneon. But you may log into Chemnitzer site, they'll give you better advice.

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I've always found tango rather interesting, though not terribly familiar to me, and it's hard not to be impressed by Astor Piazzolla's musical stylings, so the bandoneon has always held a certain appeal for me. I've mucked around with English concertina and melodeon in years past, and am having a ton of fun with my Elise Hayden Duet concertina these days, and my interest in the bandoneon has been on the rise as of late, particularly when my internet explorings turned up the vague possibilities of a Hayden bandoneon.

 

I noted that Harry Geuns (who also makes concertinas) has some B/C system 48-button hybrid-reed bandoneons for $900ish, but that's a little more than I'm willing to spend to muck around with something in a new system, and Geuns hasn't gotten to the point of deciding to make a run of Haydens yet. In the meantime, since I'd been vaguely considering picking up a cheap Anglo concertina, I figured I might as well split the difference between getting an Anglo box and getting a unisonoric bandoneon and just get some bisonoric bandoneon-ish instrument. I found what appears to be a decent deal, $400 shipped on a Morbidoni "concertina" of unknown bisonoric fingering system. Morbidoni seems to have a good rep for piano accordions, and I figured I'd take the risk on this unknown quantity: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150448955532&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:US:1123

 

That leads me to my most immediate question: how interchangeable are the big square Germanic concertinas (Chemnitzers, and other such things played in Wisconsin) with true bandoneons? I just picked this up because it was affordable and from an apparently decent maker, so a bit apprehensive as to whether some features of its tuning or sound quality make it uniquely qualified for oom-pah alone.

 

I won't be able to lay hands on it until August, when I return from Afghanistan, but am looking forward to trying it out, mainly to play slow, dark, organ-like sort of stuff. The bisonoric bit will be tricky; Anglo concertinas always confused me, though for some reason I had no trouble with 1-row melodeon.

 

In any case, if anyone has some general guidance on mucking around with bandoneons (or big, square concertinas in general), I'd appreciate any insight on how these differ in execution, things to watch for, and in general helpful gouge.

 

You might send a pm to c.net member Theodore (aka Ted) Kloba. He doesn't check in here often, but he's a great Chemnitzer player who plays some bandoneon too.

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But if you approach it as 1 row melodeon at a time, then adding more complex tunes, with more complex accompaniment - it may be easier. You'll understand the logic behind the additions etc. What you have is a Chemnitzer. Outside of those 4 or even 3 core buttons on each side additions are very different from Bandoneon. But you may log into Chemnitzer site, they'll give you better advice.

 

Good points. I was rather sure that the Morbidoni box was a Chemnitzer of some sort, though I'm still not totally clear on the technical differences between a bandoneon and a chemnitzer. Though a lot of those points wouldn't particularly matter to me personally, since it's not my intent to get formally involved in polka or tango.

 

I suppose my general flexibility is good here, since I'm not wed to any particular bisonoric fingering system, and since I mainly play solo the actual key doesn't really matter much to me. So provided the instrument functions (with some repair to the air lever) and is reasonably in-tune, I'll be hard to disappoint.

 

Though I still haven't given up on eventually getting a Hayden-system bandoneon. Geuns has been back-and-forth on the issue for a few years, but as I pointed out on a recent page of the Concertina Makers stickied thread, there are a couple German makers who hand-make new bandoneons for around E3,000 and who offer a variety of systems, including unisonoric layouts with a similar button arrangement to Haydens, and offer custom arrangements for an added fee.

 

I know that m3838 and I differ somewhat on what we want to see in a Hayden bandoneon. Personally, I don't feel terribly limited by "only" five octaves, given that almost no instrument I play has five octaves, and a lot of things I play aren't even fully chromatic.

 

Out of curiousity, m3838, are you generally leery of unisonoric bandoneons in general, given the usual limitation to around 71 keys on the standard boxes (48 on the small boxes)?

 

Granted, if I were interested in playing traditional tango I'd definitely get a box in a common bisonoric arrangement, given that said limitations are part of what defines the genre, but since my interest in bandoneons is more related to having a big, booming concertina, I'm still a fan of the Hayden layout.

 

Rather sorry I won't be able to report back on the Morbidoni concertina for a few months, but looking forward to puzzling it out.

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I've always found tango rather interesting, though not terribly familiar to me, and it's hard not to be impressed by Astor Piazzolla's musical stylings, so the bandoneon has always held a certain appeal for me.

...

That leads me to my most immediate question: how interchangeable are the big square Germanic concertinas (Chemnitzers, and other such things played in Wisconsin) with true bandoneons? I just picked this up because it was affordable and from an apparently decent maker, so a bit apprehensive as to whether some features of its tuning or sound quality make it uniquely qualified for oom-pah alone.

 

Matthew,

I'm not what you'd call a bandoneonista, but I do possess a small (52-button) German bandoneon, and play it on occasions. My main squeeze is a 30-b Anglo.

 

m3838 is partly right: the entire hand-held bisonoric tribe has a common core of buttons. These are in fact the 20 buttons of the old German concertina, which are the same as on the 20-button Anglo. The 30-b Anglo, the Chemnitzer and Carlsfelder "Large German Konzertinas" and the Bandoneon all extend this basic core in different ways. I'm not familiar with the Carlsfelder and Chemnitzer, though I know that they have 3 rows of buttons on each side, and that these rows are longer than 5 buttons each.

 

The Bandoneon also has slightly longer rows than the 20-b, and it has a complete third diatonic row. The two "core rows" are in A and E, and the third row is in G. On the left, there is a fourth row with accidentals and alternate fingerings, and on the right a fourth and fifth row, also with accidentals and alternate fingerings.

 

As to learning to use all these bisonoric buttons: I did as m3838 advised you, and started with a single diatonic row - only it was not a melodion, but my Dad's mouth organ. With this early training, I easily learned the 20-button German concertina, and when I discovered the Bandoneon (in a Berlin junk shop, but in near perfect condition and in tune!) I just transferred my 20-button repertoire to it (transposed to A/E), and gradually explored the rest. First came the G row, which interacts with the A row in a different way from the A row with the E row, giving the arrangements a different character. I discovered the alternate fingerings as I needed them, and was soon having a lot of fun.

 

When I got my 30-b Anglo, I discovered that there were some arrangements for the Bandoneon in A that transferred to the Anglo in C with precisely the same fingering. On the other hand, I have a lot of Bandoneon arrangements that just can't be transferred to the "smaller" Anglo.

 

On another point, I have to agree with m3838 yet again: a Bandonoen is by definition bisonoric, with a specific layout. If it were bisonoric with a different layout, it would be a Chemnitzer or something else. A monosonoric thingie that looks and sounds like a Bandoneon is a "hybrid bandoneon". When Harry Geuns uses this term he means a mixture of bandonoen construction with accordion fingering, rather than a Bandoneon with accordion reeds. ("Hybrid concertinas", on the other hand, are concertinas with concertina fingering but accordion reeds.)

 

If you're impressed by Piazzola, you probably like the typical Bandoneon sound, which is characterised by the absolutely dry octave tuning. You'll probably get this in a hybrid bandoneon, too - in fact, good chromatic button accordions have a "Bandoneon" register in dry octave tuning. So you can play Piazzola from sheet music quite convincingly with these instruments.

But you're only emulating the true Bandoneon. Tango music, both traditional and "alla Piazzola", is influenced in detail by the bisonoric nature of the true Bandoneon. So it is very likely that your own arrangements, worked out on a chromatic, monosonoric instrument, will not sound as "tango-ish" as you might like! (Irish concertina music is similarly influenced in detail by the bisnoric nature of the Anglo. You might be able to replicate existing arrangements on English or Duet, but your spontaneous decorations would probably be different.)

 

It's a question of whether you want to play tango (with the improvisation that this involves), or just play other people's (i.e. true Bandoneonistas') tango arrangements.

 

So, unless you want to work out your own tango arrangements, stick with the Chemnitzer. Regard it as three single-row melodeons for a start, if you like, and take it from there. You don't have to play "oom-pah" if you don't want to. biggrin.gif

 

Cheers,

John

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John, thanks for that outstanding array of answers! That clears up a fair bit, and you raise some good points about "emulating" a style vice being forced into it by the design (as in arranging Irish Anglo tunes on an English box). If I were trying to do true tango, I'd definitely stick to a tango-family box.

 

Since my interests just lie in making interesting sounds in a variety of ways, I think I can make this "concertina" work for me. Though I'm still a bit confused as to whether it's technically a "Chemnitzer", as my impression is that Chemnitzers, like bandoneons, are defined by a specific layout, vice "Band", etc. concertinas. It seems to be akin to the (mountain) dulcimer/(hammered) dulcimer confusion, as I don't know a non-clumsy way to refer to the big, boxy German concertinas so as to distinguish them from the little hex/octoganol British Isles boxes. I know Wisconisinites and the like just call the big ones "concertina", and no idea what that lot call the little ones (if anything).

 

With this Morbidoni, other than general condition (and repairability of the air lever), my main concern is the tuning: I hope it's not too unduly wet; I'm not quite sure what the convention is for the "konzertina". I'm also a bit puzzled in that it appears to be a 48-key, or at least has 24 buttons on the right side. I'm overseas on a terrible connection so can't hope to look at the pics again without taking an hour for it. So the fingering system is a bit of a puzzle, though technically it shouldn't matter to me since it's not as though I'm accustomed to any two-handed bisonoric system anyway.

 

Minor side note: anyone else feel odd pluralising them as "bandoneons"? I really keep wanting to type "bandoneones"...

Edited by MatthewVanitas
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I play a little Chemnitzer (though not very actively these days) and may be able to help with a few items:

 

The Bandoneon also has slightly longer rows than the 20-b, and it has a complete third diatonic row. The two "core rows" are in A and E, and the third row is in G. On the left, there is a fourth row with accidentals and alternate fingerings, and on the right a fourth and fifth row, also with accidentals and alternate fingerings.
The Chemnitzer core rows are a whole tone apart from each other. G and A is most common, but you see others too. The third row used to be a fifth higher than the higher of these two (therefore most commonly E) but a number of the buttons on that row have been re-purposed to cover notes that would otherwise be missing or missing in one bellows direction, so it's not a full E row anymore.

 

So, unless you want to work out your own tango arrangements, stick with the Chemnitzer. Regard it as three single-row melodeons for a start, if you like, and take it from there. You don't have to play "oom-pah" if you don't want to.
This is a reasonable starting point, but you'll need to develop a cross-row style soon that doesn't require frequent changes of bellow direction, since you've got 3 or 4 reeds per note and it's too much work to change direction with every note of the scale.

 

I don't know a non-clumsy way to refer to the big, boxy German concertinas so as to distinguish them from the little hex/octoganol British Isles boxes.
Ted Kloba calls them LSGC's (for Large Square German Concertinas).

 

With this Morbidoni, other than general condition (and repairability of the air lever), my main concern is the tuning: I hope it's not too unduly wet; I'm not quite sure what the convention is for the "konzertina". I'm also a bit puzzled in that it appears to be a 48-key, or at least has 24 buttons on the right side.
It looks like a standard 52-button Chemnitzer to me (which a real Chemnitzer player would call a "104-key"). A Chemnitzer keyboard layout is here, courtesy of Ted Kloba. A good Chemnitzer FAQ is here (Ted once again). And
is a video of Ted playing one quite nicely.
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Out of curiousity, m3838, are you generally leery of unisonoric bandoneons in general, given the usual limitation to around 71 keys on the standard boxes (48 on the small boxes)?

 

 

Not sure what you mean. I like bandoneon sound, but realize it's not fitting all music I like to play. The type of tango that I like, for example (european, not argentinian), have never been played on bandoneon, dry octave sound is strange to them. Doable, but not generally accepted.

The reason I don't have the hybrid bandoneon is unwillingness to pay so much for inferior Chinese reeds. I think I am better off with some bisonoric button accordion with 2/5 rows and 12 basses with good reeds. It's chromatic, has good selection of accompaniment (tango included) and I'm not concerned with the key. It's easy for me to pick melodies by ear on diatonic box. Chromatic box of the same quality is more expensive and learning curve is steeper. No time for it. But frankly, to say that Bandoneons are for Tango, is the same as to say that Chemnitzers are for Polka. Can't be farther from the truth. Lots of players use bandoneons for classical music, and Chemnitzers are used for anything that can be fitted into their range.

To use Bandoneons for Tango, Chemnitzers for Polka and Anglo concertina for Irish exclusively is to show off quite conformist mind. So Guitar should be only used for Spanish, Fiddle for Gypsy, Piano for Chopin, etc. What nonsense. Bandoneon is fully chromatic instrument on both, push and pull and is not specifically suited for Tango at all. Tango, in it's own term, is not exclusively played on Bandoneon, but rather more often on violins, guitars, pianos and upright basses. Bando is rare guest even in Argentina. Chemnitzer is too, very rare instrument, so is Anglo concertina. Polka, Tango, Irish music are far from obscure, they can't be influenced by rare instrument, randomly played well.

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Welp, now I've got a Morbidoni chemnitzer and a Geuns hyrbrid C-system chromatic waiting for me back in the US, so I'll have to try both and see what sort of system appeals to me. Of course, if I end up liking unisonoric bandoneon I'll have to pony up some decent cash, E3,000+ for a Hayden bandoneon...

 

For others interested, there is some generic bandoneon up on eBay now, not much info about it but it was selling for next to nothing (like $17 at current bidding). Just in case someone wants to venture on a pig-in-a-poke if the bidding stays low. I'm a bit over-stocked, myself...

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Hello Matthew,

 

Harry really is the expert and brain-trust on all this, but, for what it's worth, I'm going to add a few comments that may add some perspective to your interests.

I posted comments about the Geuns Hybrid in the "Hybrid Question" thread that Felix started that may also be helpful to you.

 

Apart from their similar external appearance, chemnitzers and bandonions/bandoneons are really quite different animals.

The tango bandonions are tuned differently in South America than in Europe. The chemnitzers are tuned differently than either of these.

The styles of music and expression are about as different as you can get and the boxes have been designed and modified accordingly.

The keyboard layouts vary widely depending on the box, maker, era, and location when and where they were built.

Most are bisonic, but some unisonic boxes were built primarily in Germany for the French market when the French became enthralled with the sound and expression of tango int he early 1900's.

The bisonoric tango layouts are too numerous to keep track of but fall primarily into Argentinian, German, and European layouts with variations in location and number of tones/buttons.

There are two primary unisonic layouts among the bandoneons: Meisel and Peguri/Piguri. Meisel conforms strictly to a C-griff CBA layout while Piguri has a central core of C-griff CBA layout with accidentals and alternate locations utilized around the edges for ease/convenience.

Neither are really anything like Hayden/Wiki despite the frequent comparison of Hayden/Wiki to a CBA layout.

For what it's worth - to me - compared to a CBA layout, the Hayden/Wiki is cumbersome, awkward, and illogical.

Over the years, Chemnitzers developed as dance/polka boxes in Europe and were played extensively in the upper midwest of the US for decades.

Sadly, they were relegated to "bar boxes" over the years and today few really know how to play them.

All told, there may be a handful of old-timers who really know the Chemnitzer and could be considered masters of the instrument.

The same is true for those who can maintain or repair them.

There is a movement to teach the Chemnitzer genre to younger players, but it has yet to compete with a band instrument or a guitar.

The bandonion has experienced a resurgence in the last decade or two with expanded popularity and interest in tango. Perhaps this will bode well for it.

Not having played the subject Morbodoni, I suspect that you will find that it has little in common with any English or Hayden concertina or with the Geuns Hybrid other than that they all have bellows.

And, to me, that is quite wonderful - as you will have the opportunity to experiment with various systems and sounds that most do not enjoy.

I hope these ramblings are in some way helpful to you.

Please let us know what you discover.

 

May you return home as safely as you left.

 

Be Well,

Dan

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You were saying that Tango Bandoneons are tuned differently in Europe and in South America.

What's the difference and are there "non-Tango-Bandoneons"?

 

Micha,

I've been looking at Bandoneons offered on eBay recently. A couple of good, playable ones offered from Argentina were described as "recently tuned to A=442". European free reed instruments (new or freshly tuned) seem to be almost universally tuned to A=440 nowadays.

 

Apart from that, yes, there are "non-tango Bandoneons". I have one!

 

I would regard the "dry-octave" tuning as typical of the tango-Bandoneon sound, but my Bandoneon has single reeds throughout. I've corresponded with Harry Geuns about it, and it is definitely a 104-tone (52-button) Bandoneon, not a German Konzertina (though apparently some Konzertinas and some Bandoneons have very similar layouts). Harry dated it to around 1900, and it has a Potsdam, Germany seller's die stamp. It is still in tune, but at roughly A=435. The main diatonic rows are in G, A and E.

 

My instrument is small (for a Bandoneon), the ends being 18.5 cm x 19.5 cm, with 11-fold bellows (including one central bellows frame). The reeds are traditional German ones in long zinc plates, which are nailed to reed chambers flat on the action-board, as opposed to the more usual reed banks. There being only one reed per tone, there's enough room for them to lie flat despite the small overall size.

 

Despite the single reeds, my instrument has a thick, heavy sound, more reminiscent of a harmonium than of an English-made concertina. I have played it in church, where it was very well received and filled out the acoustic space nicely.

It's still a lot heavier than an Anglo concertina, so bellows changes are unwieldy - but being a Bandoneon, it has alternate fingerings for all the notes that I ever need. And it is probably more agile than a "full size" Bandoneon.

 

It's definitely a "non-tango Bandoneon" in almost every respect! I'm not familiar with the "Argentine" button layout, so I can't judge it on that point.

 

Cheers,

John

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Hello,

 

Here are a couple of google search links for Bandonion History and Bandoneon History.

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=bandonion+history&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=g-sx1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=bandoneon+history&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

 

It is important to search both as the bandonion is historically different from the bandoneon is subtle ways which I think you will read in at least one of these articles.

The articles listed here are very informative and are probably better read from the source than rewritten.

I have not read them in some time, so if the matter of tuning is not addressed, let me know and I will seek out an additional source.

 

Be Well,

Dan

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Hello,

 

Here's a link to a summary with a couple of other useful links to information about Chemnitzers.

 

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Chemnitzer_concertina

 

 

This text from the article may be of particular note to folks here:

 

"Sources differ whether German inventor Carl Friedrich Uhlig created his first concertina after seeing Charles Wheatstone's instrument of the same name, or whether the two men invented their instruments concurrently and independently. Uhlig's patent dates to 1834, and while Wheatstone patented a related instrument, the symphonium in 1829, he did not patent an instrument under the name "Concertina" until 1844."

 

Be Well,

Dan

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It is important to search both as the bandonion is historically different from the bandoneon is subtle ways which I think you will read in at least one of these articles.

 

 

Read many of those before.

I think you are been too literal here.

BandonEon and BandonIon is the same. Just some spelling in German or Spanish, who cares.

Systems don't matter, tuning doesn't matter. Octave reeds matter a little, but not much.

School may favor some system and tuning, it's important, but only because teachers feel more comfortable with one. It's not imperative though. But I'm glad Bandoneon draws such interest on this site. Refreshing.

 

 

 

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RE: I think you are been too literal here.

 

Perhaps, but no more so than our usual attention to details and distinctions like:

 

Anglos, English, Duet

Treble, tenor, tenor-treble, extended treble, piccolo, soprano, baritone, bass

Number of rows, keys, air button or not, drone or not

 

Wheatstone

Aeola

Mayfair

A long list of catalog models and their corresponding differences in effect

 

Lachenal

Excelsior

Raised ends

New Model

Edeophone

 

Chidleys, Jones

Retailers labels

Specs for distributors and others, e.g., Matusewitch, Salvation Army

 

Reed length, material, cut, pan, shoes, chamber size and corresponding harmonic differentials

Size and location of the hole in the soundboard

Various tuning hz at A

Stamped or riveted reed assemblies

Various actions

Radial or parallel or arrangement

Chamber sizes

Bellows folds and materials

Baffles or no and material of such

Fretwork

Metal or wooden ends - raised or flat

Height, size, and rounded or flat-topped buttons

Label colors and shapes

Builders' addresss at the time of manufacture

Persons associated with the specific firms at the time of manufacture

 

Just to mention a few ...

 

 

RE: BandonEon and BandonIon is the same. Just some spelling in German or Spanish, who cares.

 

Some clearly do care as the nuances are more than variations in spelling and warrant mentioning by those who do care for those who are genuinely and seriously interested.

 

RE: Systems don't matter, tuning doesn't matter. Octave reeds matter a little, but not much.

 

Most hard-core, purist, tango players would consider this comment purely indifference or total ignorance.

For the purist a TRUE tango bandoneon is bisonoric and tuned for tango which must be two reeds sounding simultaneously and tuned PRECISELY one octave apart - no exceptions, no deviations, no variations.

The essential system is the 142 Rheinische Lage.

The quintessential box is an AA (Alfred Arnold) built (in Germany and exported to South America) prior to the war.

This is not true of bandonions made for European players who were often French CBA players more comfortable with various tunings and and who played unisonic instruments of various ranges produced particularly for them.

It is also not true of Chemnitzers which are typically wet tuned and can have as many as four reeds.

 

Be Well,

Dan

Edited by danersen
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John,

 

I am very interested in your comment:

 

"Despite the single reeds, my instrument has a thick, heavy sound, more reminiscent of a harmonium than of an English-made concertina. I have played it in church, where it was very well received and filled out the acoustic space nicely."

 

There are reports in the literature that one of the motivations for the development of the bandonion may have been to provide "organ-like" accompaniment for churches who could not afford organs.

Perhaps yours could be one of those? In any case, if you can provide a sound clip, it would be great to hear it with that historical perspective and possibility in mind.

 

Be Well,

Dan

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