custom keyboard layout

[colledge]

Hello all

 

I've played irish music on the concertina for 10 years and wondered what you think of this custom 34 button layout.

 

to basically describe it. it's a C/G. the top row is removed and all useful buttons from it are move either into the 4 extras or into the place of other buttons that I don't use.

 

In the place of the top row, I put an F row. The purpose of this is to make the rows better correspond with the strings of a fiddle. I play across the rows, so the way I play D, Em, Am, G and C on the middle row, I could just jump up a row and play in G, Am, Dm, C, and F the same way a fiddler would jump up a string. The C#'s are still in useful positions and I can generally play the way I normally do.

 

There will be some readjusting, but I'll have to do that anyway moving from a 30 to 34 button

 

sean

[Lawrence Reeves]

Sean, I see the logic in your system, however not sure it to be necessary. I find that F tunes are usually comfortable on a C/ G, and even the g minor tunes. The typical third row can be a useful set of buttons for the reversal of G and A, as well as a low C#( left hand). I have played a few 22 and 24 buttoned instruments that place the common C# on the extra keys on the C row, and had no trouble using them. Another concern might be if you acquire a vintage, or alternate keyed instrument not in a custom layout, your brain might process a lot of wrong note choices. The biggest plus I see is a push F natural, but then again I like the sound of a F nat pulled.

[colledge]

Mr Reeves. Good to hear from you!

 

The system is least of all for playing in F, but more to reconcile an anglo system with the mind of a fiddler. Obviously none of it is necessary, I've played a standard 30 button for 10 years. Typically I think of the middle row more in terms of a cross row D scale than a C scale. Below that is a corresponding A, like on a fiddle and I tought it would be cool to have a corresponding G above it like on a fiddle. You'd literally be able to play double stops on the concertina, in the same places as a fiddle. The reverse G/A is a big compromise. As you can see, below the G/D/A puls on the left hand there are changes as well. The low E/F is moved to the middle row where the high E/F is and a corresponding A/B is put on button one, just for octaves. I never use that low C/G much on button L6.

 

There are also expanded ornament options, especially in Em, and a lot of those pesky low range fiddle tunes would be easier. Most of the regular system stays unchanged.

 

Thanks for your input. Let me know if you see more good/bad.

[Lawrence Reeves]

Well, I recently upgraded my Suttner order from a C/G 30 key to a 38 key. I did it because I have become used to an alternate high G#, and I realize I can't live without it on a few tunes.

[JimLucas]

I've played irish music on the concertina for 10 years and wondered what you think of this custom 34 button layout.

Is this just in the planning stage, or have you already had it built?

Did you first make a mock up (little circles on paper) and try various tunes to see how they might feel?

 

As with most alternate layouts, I expect that improvements on some tunes will be compensated by difficulties on others. But maybe you don't play those tunes?

 

A few points, though:

• As written, the B's in your "F" row are natural, not flat. Is that intended, or an error in transcription?
  
• I would find it limiting that, although you have C#5 three times, you have neither C#4 nor C#6. Not only can those other two octaves be useful in playing the occasional harmony note, but a number of fiddle tunes go below D4, even if whistles normally don't.
  
• You're also missing some other notes. Among them, Bb5 (A#5) and Eb4 (D#4) are essential for some tunes in Bb or Gm. Maybe lso Bb3, if those really are natural B's in your F row. And F#6? I have an anglo where that has been replaced by something else, and I do miss it.
  
• One thing I definitely would change is the A2/B2 (A2/Bb2?) in your F row. I think a D3/D3 (there's currently another thread about this) would far more useful for the sort of music you play.

 

There will be some readjusting, but I'll have to do that anyway moving from a 30 to 34 button

Oh, you wouldn't have to.

After all, they say that when William Kimber (admittedly not Irish) went from a 20-button to a 30-button, he just kept playing the tunes he already knew on the same 20 buttons.

 

But with your new layout, you will have to. There may be a period during which you find yourself unable to play at least some tunes that you previously had down pat. On the other hand, the human brain is quite flexible, and it likely won't be long before the new layout will feel as natural as the old one.

 

In the place of the top row, I put an F row. The purpose of this is to make the rows better correspond with the strings of a fiddle. I play across the rows, so the way I play D, Em, Am, G and C on the middle row, I could just jump up a row and play in G, Am, Dm, C, and F the same way a fiddler would jump up a string. The C#'s are still in useful positions and I can generally play the way I normally do.

If it works for you, fine, but I think you're stretching the "fiddle" analogy. When a fiddler shifts by a string, there's no change to the relative positions of any of the notes in the new key. With your layout, although most of the notes will be relatively in the same position, a few won't be, and it will be a different few for each key shift/tune.

 

With tongue deeply in cheek, I'll stretch the analogy much further, and suggest that you should play your concertina to the left side of your chin and on the fiddle play many of the notes only with either an up or a down bow stroke.

 

On the other hand, if such a shift-symmetry seems important to you, why not consider either an English or a Hayden duet? On both of those, such a shift is pretty well built into the fundamental design of the layout. (And if you feel a need for bellows reversals, you can simply restrict yourself as I jokingly suggested for the fiddle.)

[david fabre]

Your idea is interesting. My advice would be : go for it and tell us if it works

 

As Jim, I'd suggest to include the missing notes he pointed (especially the D3).

Maybe, if the instrument is not already in construction, you could go up to 36-38 buttons.

Or you would have to alter the regularity, but this would go against your fiddle analogy.

 

 

David

[Dave Weinstein]

So, I've done this (sort of).

 

I started on a 20 button G/D, and then moved to a new layout that I designed.

 

I'm quite happy with the results, and I really like the possibilities that my layout offers, but it's still a course to be careful when trying.

 

I had Bob Tedrow build the original instrument, and he told me that he could change the layout to a conventional pattern if I didn't like the results. I made a few minor changes to the button layout over the years as I found things I wanted to change, and eventually commissioned a Dipper in the same layout.

 

I should note that the difference in design led me to sell my Lachenal G/D almost immediately after getting the Tedrow, I simply couldn't play both instruments without tripping over my own fingers.

 

So I guess my advice is, designing a custom instrument can be very rewarding. But there are risks involved.

[colledge]

Thanks for the replies.

 

The instrument isn't built, I'm just thinking about what I want to do. When I say that it would be an adjustment anyway from a 30 to a 34, I'm referring to the fact that you'll naturally change some things to make use of your expanded options.

 

I guess there are a lot of C#s on there. The ones on the right are self explanatory, but maybe I'll take a second look at whether I need that one on the left

 

C#4 and C#6, D#4, A#5, F#6. I just don't ever use them. Yes is is supposed to be a Bb. Thanks for pointing out that error, and I'll check out the D3 thread.

 

Sean

[david fabre]

Hi,

Two other remarks :

 

1/ You're designing the instrument considering what you are playing now.

Are you sure your needs will be the same in 10 years ?

If for instance you want to play harmonic style in the key of C, you will have

trouble with your layout as the three main chords (C, G, F) are all on the push.

 

2/ Why not transpose your idea one step up and have a G/D/A ? This seems to me

to make much more sense considering what you want to play. You will have to change

you approach of the instrument for this, but anyway you are disposed to learn a new system, aren't you ?

 

David

[colledge]

David,

 

I don't know what harmonic style it.

Why not transpose your idea one step up and have a G/D/A ?

 

Because, if you read the thread about playing across the rows (noel Hill). I play that way. Doing that wouldn't make much sense, and I'm starting to think that you'd have to play that way to understand the benefits of this.

[david fabre]

 

I don't know what harmonic style it.

 

The style played by, for instance, John Kirkpatrick, Jody Kruskal, Brian Peter.

Something foreigner from the irish world.

 

 

 

Why not transpose your idea one step up and have a G/D/A ?

 

Because, if you read the thread about playing across the rows (noel Hill). I play that way. Doing that wouldn't make much sense, and I'm starting to think that you'd have to play that way to understand the benefits of this.

 

Well, I do play Irish Music, and I have experimented with both cross-row style (but not Noel Hill system as I'm not initiated to it), and along-the-row style (like for instance Mary McNamara). I see benefits to both approaches, but I'm still wondering why the first one is favoured by most players. What I'm sure is that the cross-row is more difficult to learn than the along-the-row style : I've experimented with transposing some tunes in D or Emin one step down and the fingering is definitely simpler. The drawback of along-the-row is, of course, that you can't play in D on a C/G, so you have either to play alone, to get a G/D or D/A, or go to a "C" session (I know there are such things in Ireland, but not in may area).

Edited April 30, 2010 by david fabre

[colledge]

The benefit is that, between use of the buttons and the bellows, that system fits best with the rhythmic structure of ITM and the way other instruments execute those rhythms as well, particularly the pipes and fiddle.

 

Imagine a Clare style fiddler playing a jig or reel in C or G, with all of the bowings, slurs and ornaments associated with Clare style, playing with a concertina player who is just honking away going up and down the same row like a harmonica, change of bellows for every note and no regard for what the fiddler is doing.

 

Now imagine the same thing with a concertina player who is making full use of the keyboard to match the bellows with the slurs or rhythmic changes in bow direction and ornaments.

 

Its night and day.

[colledge]

Ok I've revised it.

 

The G#4/A#4 was supposed to be G#5/A#5. That was the intention. I just wrote it wrong.

 

Also the B on the top row was indeed supposed to be Bb.

 

Larry. Though it seems like a lot of C#'s. I believe 2 is needed on the right side, but having one on the left, along with the F row on top adds options for playing in the Key of A. Try it.

 

sean

[david fabre]

About the duplicated c# on the left :

I have it on my instrument at the same position. I once used it quite ofen.

Recently, I've modified my layout to have c# in both directions on the right

on the same button (as in your project).

Now I find myself using much less the one on the left.

 

About the cross-row style : I've precised my views on the other thread.

[Dave Weinstein]

Imagine a Clare style fiddler playing a jig or reel in C or G, with all of the bowings, slurs and ornaments associated with Clare style, playing with a concertina player who is just honking away going up and down the same row like a harmonica, change of bellows for every note and no regard for what the fiddler is doing.

 

I'm confused. I thought the Clare style was developed on 20 button C/G instruments that did play along the rows.

[colledge]

Imagine a Clare style fiddler playing a jig or reel in C or G, with all of the bowings, slurs and ornaments associated with Clare style, playing with a concertina player who is just honking away going up and down the same row like a harmonica, change of bellows for every note and no regard for what the fiddler is doing.

 

I'm confused. I thought the Clare style was developed on 20 button C/G instruments that did play along the rows.

The Clare style of fiddling certainly didn't

 

One more thing. Because of the mistake with the B, now that it's a Bb, I don't need the B2 on Button L1, so I can make that my D3.

 

I'm so glad I shared this. These were important errors.

 

sean

[Dave Weinstein]

The Clare style of fiddling certainly didn't

 

Presumably, Clare fiddlers were playing with Clare concertina players (unless they sat about in opposite corners scowling at each other), so I would think that the two would not be horribly wrong together.

[colledge]

The Clare style of fiddling certainly didn't

 

Presumably, Clare fiddlers were playing with Clare concertina players (unless they sat about in opposite corners scowling at each other), so I would think that the two would not be horribly wrong together.

 

And nobody else in the country? Clare style concertina playing is not necessarily played strictly up and down rows, maybe some in C or G, but everything else has to be done cross rows doesn't it? Since nothing else has its own row? I don't hear Elizabeth Crotty playing everything up and down the rows. Maybe you should start a thread about it and see if someone wants to debate you about it.