Why does a C/G anglo not have a low D?

[MarkvN]

To my understanding, the lowest notes on the left hand side of a C/G anglo concertina in most cases read [push/draw]: B/A - C/G - E/F, although in some cases Wheatstones seem to have a B/D instead of the B/A. So usually a C/G does not have a low D. 38 button Jeffries and 40 button Wheatstones have several extra notes in the middle and higher range, but apparently the missing low D (or low A), is never added (or any other bass note, for that matter.) Can anyone explain to me why this is? Is it historical? Fysical limitations of the instrument? Would it for some reason not be considered a usefull addition? Or did I overlook something and do they exist all right?

 

Thanks a lot,

 

Mark

Edited April 26, 2010 by MarkvN

[michael sam wild]

I have wondered but never found the need for one (I'd call it D1( one below mid C) . My lowest is G2, very growly , on a 40b Crabb C/G

Edited April 27, 2010 by michael sam wild

[Chris Ghent]

yes, its historical; playing in D was not a high priority for those who designed the C/G layout. They were playing along the rows, not across them. If they wanted to play in D they would use a D row.

 

Its also technical in that a D needs a whacking great reed frame and space is already at a premium.

 

Chris

[david fabre]

Personally, this low D is the note I miss the most.

For instruments with 20b or 30b the reason is certainly historical.

On the other hand, I can difficultly understand why it is also missing on most

instruments with 38 to 40 buttons. Apparently the persons who designed these instrument

prefered to duplicate some rare notes (such as G#, C#, D#) to have them in both direction

instead of adding much more useful (for me) missing notes such as this low D.

 

When my 40 button Wheatsone was renovated, I made some modifications of the layout,

but I found no solution for this low D : I need all the other bass notes, and

for the notes I was ready to trade, the gap was to large to be reasonable.

 

David

[MarkvN]

Thank you all for your replies. Interestingly, all three reactions take quite a different angle on the issue.

The low D reed would be smaller than the low C that's already there, wouldn't it? So it wouldn't be ungainly large, would it?

Would it be possible to trade some of the space that is used for mid-range notes in a 38 or 40 button instrument for an extra bass note (or two actually, on the push and pull)? And, David Fabre mentions that the low D is 'missing on most instruments' – so they do exist?

Thanks, Mark

Edited April 26, 2010 by MarkvN

[Marien]

Hi Mark,

 

Similar to the missing low D is another feature on some C/G anglos.

It is the C "drone" on the left hand (the `opposit air release button´ on the left hand).

I once heard from a concertina maker that every concertina he had opened showed that this C drone button had rarely been used.

 

For Irish I think it makes sense to have a D on that place in stead of the C.

 

Back to the topic - the question is whether a tune really needs a low D.

I assume that the majority of Irish Trad players rarely play a tune that low.

The "drone" D (one octave higher) may be heard better if it is for emphasizing the basic D.

 

How do,

Marien

[michael sam wild]

Personally, this low D is the note I miss the most.

For instruments with 20b or 30b the reason is certainly historical.

On the other hand, I can difficultly understand why it is also missing on most

instruments with 38 to 40 buttons. Apparently the persons who designed these instrument

prefered to duplicate some rare notes (such as G#, C#, D#) to have them in both direction

instead of adding much more useful (for me) missing notes such as this low D.

 

When my 40 button Wheatsone was renovated, I made some modifications of the layout,

but I found no solution for this low D : I need all the other bass notes, and

for the notes I was ready to trade, the gap was to large to be reasonable.

 

David

 

Hi David what tunes have you needed it for or is it to use in chords?

 

 

re the C drone I have thought of a D drone instead.

Edited April 26, 2010 by michael sam wild

[Michael Reid]

I have a low D on my Suttner 32-button C/G, because I ordered it that way. It replaces the low F (pull) on the accidentals row.

 

I thought about it for a long time before ordering the instrument this way, and I got the thumbs-up from a few people here before finalizing my choice. As a player of Irish trad, I absolutely love the low D and use it frequently for emphasis. I haven't missed the F.

[david fabre]

So why would I need a low D ?

As Mike SW anticipated, mostly for harmonic playing (in bass-chord style, and also for bass runs on accompaniment). For melodic playing (irish or other), as Marien states the large majority of players (and of tunes) don't need to go so low. For Irish style using chords for emphasis, as some players do and as I try to do also, a low D would be more useful than the low F, and if I were to play only Irish music I would definitely do the trade as on Mike Reid's instrument. However, I want to play a variety of things, including tunes with chords in the keys of C and F, and I would miss a lot the low F if I had not it (and also the low Bb, and actually all other bass notes). If I had got my instrument new, I would have requested a low D and a low F# (another missing bass) instead of one of the buttons I use less (for instance the button with Fpush/G#pull, or the one with F#push/C#pull). The construction of the instrument would certainly let some place for two additional big reeds, with enlarging the corresponding chamber. Unfortunately, I was not here in 1907 to specify this, and now I can not do anything without risking to ruin the instrument (and Colin Dipper, who did the renovation, strongly dissuaded me of doing such modifications !)

 

About other instruments having this low D : I remember some of them were discussed recently, but they were enlarged instruments with 42 buttons or more. Also, I beleive Jody Kruskal has a the equivalent of this note (he plays G/D so it is a low A), as I can hear it distinctively on his records. I don't know where this note is located on his instruments.

 

About the "drone" C : I have seldom experimented with using it. As stated above it is not useful with irish tunes as they are rarely in C (however, try it with "the geese in the bog" and "the fisherman's lilt"). It is a more useful with french tunes (bourrées or other). I also sometimes use this button, not as a drone, but to have a C on the pull (for some tunes in C or F).

Anyway, I would not trade it for a "drone D" as I got used to playing the D in both directions on their respective buttons.

 

David

Edited April 26, 2010 by david fabre

[Chris Ghent]

The low D reed would be smaller than the low C that's already there, wouldn't it? So it wouldn't be ungainly large, would it?

You can always make a note work in a shorter frame but it is a compromise. Shorter reeds need to be thinner with more weight on the end. This changes their starting speed and affects their ability to stay in tune under pressure. If you want a good one then it needs to be somewhere close to the ideal size which is not much smaller than the C. Putting a low D into an existing instrument instead of a middle C drone for example would be stretching the possibilities a long way. Changing the low F to D much less so. If you commision a 30 key instrument with one extra button for the low D it is easy, though if you want it close to the other low buttons it will cost you. Perhaps less so in a radial setup.

Would it be possible to trade some of the space that is used for mid-range notes in a 38 or 40 button instrument for an extra bass note (or two actually, on the push and pull)?

Yes but difficult to rearrange in an existing instrument because the D frame needs to be much larger than those midrange notes. Not impossible, depends on the level of intervention you are prepared to undertake.

 

regs

 

Chris

[michael sam wild]

I have a low D on my Suttner 32-button C/G, because I ordered it that way. It replaces the low F (pull) on the accidentals row.

 

I thought about it for a long time before ordering the instrument this way, and I got the thumbs-up from a few people here before finalizing my choice. As a player of Irish trad, I absolutely love the low D and use it frequently for emphasis. I haven't missed the F.

 

 

I use mine for Irish and Englis and songs and F is very good for chords and key of F. What tunes do you use that low D in?

 

 

i was playing with some fiddlers last night and they only go down to G1 of course unless they tune down a bit.

 

We did some Hornpipes that went low like Stoney Steps and Cross the Fence and we got to discussing those runs down and I'm thinking a lot about it both for Anglo and Melodeon.

 

 

 

It would be nice to have a full run from C down to C1

 

On my Crabb 40b C/G I can't really see me using the grumbling G2 nice as it is, other than to throw it in to surprise people !

Edited April 27, 2010 by michael sam wild

[Michael Reid]

I have a low D on my Suttner 32-button C/G, because I ordered it that way. It replaces the low F (pull) on the accidentals row.

 

I thought about it for a long time before ordering the instrument this way, and I got the thumbs-up from a few people here before finalizing my choice. As a player of Irish trad, I absolutely love the low D and use it frequently for emphasis. I haven't missed the F.

 

I use mine for Irish and Englis and songs and F is very good for chords and key of F. What tunes do you use that low D in?

 

i was playing with some fiddlers last night and they only go down to G1 of course unless they tune down a bit.

 

I use it mostly with tunes in D. Tunes in F are quite rare in my circles. A box player did play one at our session the other night, and some of us nearly fell off our chairs.

 

I don't use the low D for melody, but only as a single accompanying bass note or sometimes in chords. John Williams, in his instructional video on button accordion, describes what he calls the 'piping regulators' approach to using accordion bass buttons -- playing them sparingly, rather than holding them down or affecting an oom-pah-pah style -- and that's pretty much what I try to do on concertina.

[Dana Johnson]

I replaced the low F on my instrument with a D ( also offered as a choice on my instruments ) ( same size reed frame ) and I love it. It is quite true that the low F us useful for some, and that is for them to decide. I rarely used mine, so the trade wasn't painful. I like the Low D because while you have nice "churchy" chords in G A and C, but the D lacked that nice bottom note. I find it good in airs. Having the low F makes sense for people who play a lot in C, but in G or D , having the D available for the common chord progressions GCD, DGA makes the same kid of sense. Missing the Low F doesn't hinder me in that key any more than not having the low D did for the Key of D.

Carefully done, bringing down a low F to the by weighting, ( not filing ) to the D is easy and doesn't actually add much to the tip unless the F was already very undersized and heavily weighted. Then replacing would be better.

Dana

[michael sam wild]

Sound comments on the use of the low D as useful chord addition.

[Chris Ghent]

Carefully done, bringing down a low F to the by weighting, ( not filing ) to the D is easy and doesn't actually add much to the tip unless the F was already very undersized and heavily weighted. Then replacing would be better.

All of my experience is with parallel reed pans and Jeffries sized instruments. These have the E/F reeds facing the B/D (or B/A) reeds and laying parallel to a side. As all are longer reeds it creates the tightest point in the reedpan. For this reason the E/F reed sizes are compromised in length already, particularly the E, and a shift downwards won't help with pitch stability. Having said that, this discussion has got me thinking enough about the subject to go to the shed and make a D for the F slot in my own instrument this morning before I do anything more constructive.

 

Chris

[Chris Ghent]

Now have a D in the F position. Makes for a lovely rich chord though the fingering for the chord is tricky, perhaps it will become easier with time. The reed is not too thin and it starts quickly because the chamber is small, but this also means less fundamental. A pity, as it is the fundamental you are doing it for. On the whole I think it a plus, I'll leave it there and see if I miss the F which is carefully stored.

 

It has occurred to me I hardly ever use the low A# and could have the D on the push there. Do others use the A# a lot for ITM?

 

regs

 

Chris

[Jody Kruskal]

About other instruments having this low D : I remember some of them were discussed recently, but they were enlarged instruments with 42 buttons or more. Also, I beleive Jody Kruskal has a the equivalent of this note (he plays G/D so it is a low A), as I can hear it distinctively on his records. I don't know where this note is located on his instruments.

David

 

I have been thinking about the lack of a low D on the C/G for a long time and have come up with a solution that works very well for me.

 

I would not gladly give up my low F as some here suggest, but to get the low D on my 30 button C/G Anglo (A on my G/D) I put it as a draw in button 2a. That's the second from the lowest button in the accidental row of the left hand. That button in the draw (A3 push always) is something of a wild card pitch anyway with my various boxes having differing pitches there. Also, I found that I rarely if ever played draw on that button, but now I do, frequently, because in the harmonic style I favor, that pitch is often needed and the 2a button is in a very good position to play um pa chords with the pitches D1 - D2,A3 on buttons 2a - 3,5.

 

I have been using this alteration for three years now and never once missed the pitch I gave up to get my low D. Perhaps you Irish session players use the pitch of your 2a draw button, but I doubt that you often play melody down there and the "regulator" chording that some of you like would benefit from that fine low D.

 

The Button Box had no trouble replacing that pitch for minimal cost and it sounds great.

Edited April 30, 2010 by Jody Kruskal

[MarkvN]

Thank you all for the interesting input. Food for thought for sure!

 

Because I started to learn from Bertram Levy's tutor, I use the low E and F on the accidentals row quite a lot, so trading one of those for a D would not be an option for me. Jody's suggestion, however, sounds very tempting. In my Wheatstone layout that button is a low Bb on the draw, which I rarely, if ever, seem to use. Assuming that a low D would physically fit there in my instrument, it sounds like a good solution!

 

Would it be possible to bring the Bb (Bb 3) down to D by weighting and/or filing, or would I be in for disaster? I opened the instument; the Bb measures 25 mm in length, whereas the low C measures 35 mm and the low E 33 mm, so I guess not… However, the radial reedpan seems to provide the space that would be required for a larger shoe…

 

Kind regards,

Mark