Vegetarian concertina

[Dirge]

Excuse me, but if you aren't going to eat that steak can I have it?

[Leo]

........

But could the construction of an animal-free (and possibly ethically sound ) instrument ever be feasible from a purely engineering perspective: one that meets the demands of performance, use and musicians?

I nominate bamboo, although it might be a step backwards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7DH67i-qtw&fmt=18

 

Thanks

Leo

[gavdav]

I guess you could burn your concertina in an attempt to discourage anyone from deriving selfish pleasure from the suffering of the poor sheep exploited for their felt so many years ago, but really... is that the best way to honor the sacrifice of all those cochineal beetles who gave their lives?

 

exactly - I didn't mean to derail a construction based thread, but what's done is done and anyway, can you imagine a synthetic based concertina that would still be as playable as a vintage jeffries or wheatstone is now, in another 100 years? (and yep, I love that brazilian rosewood, bone and leather box...) I was intrigued by those carbon fibre edeophone ends though...

 

FWIW I don't really think you can make anything that doesn't have some impact or potentially arguable ethical side effect if you particularly wanted to go down that route, but life is too short

 

PS - Morse concertinas also contain Beeswax if we're still tallying a list of animal ingredients

[tombilly]

It's an interesting question but maybe an academic one. There are many shades of vegetarianism and I'd reckon each individual veggie has differing views and standards, largely depending on why they take this route in the first place. I'd too be of that inclination for many years and whilst I wouldn't choose to eat 'fish, flesh nor fowl', I'll happily wear leather mountain boots, leather sandals and play a Lachenal concertina with bone bottons etc. These materials function well and I'd rather have the items made from 'natural' materials rather than petro chemical alternatives. Likewise, I plant and grow trees but I'll also cut them down and burn for firewood and I have some lovely flutes. Life is full of sorts of contradictions!

[Dana Johnson]

It's an interesting question but maybe an academic one. There are many shades of vegetarianism and I'd reckon each individual veggie has differing views and standards, largely depending on why they take this route in the first place. I'd too be of that inclination for many years and whilst I wouldn't choose to eat 'fish, flesh nor fowl', I'll happily wear leather mountain boots, leather sandals and play a Lachenal concertina with bone bottons etc. These materials function well and I'd rather have the items made from 'natural' materials rather than petro chemical alternatives. Likewise, I plant and grow trees but I'll also cut them down and burn for firewood and I have some lovely flutes. Life is full of sorts of contradictions!

Since the vegetarian / vegan ethical point has already been stated or is implicit in a number of the preceding comments, I'd like to take a stand for the plant world that we assume has no feelings and boil alive without a moment's thought as we chow down on it's unborn children in our daily bread. Years ago ( not that many ) people believed that animals were too dumb to have feelings, performing live dissections on them on a regular basis to find out what made them tick. We make the same assumptions now with plants, ignoring indications of distributed consciousness and plant to plant communication, and strong defensive reactions to grazing and other animal predation. Pretty good indications that they would like to live out their lives as much as the rest of us. Because most of them aren't mobile, they are easy prey. but prey none the less. We chose not to identify with life, but mobility. How ethical is that?

Then there is always the ethical argument dealing with the waste of valuable agricultural space on livestock when it is much more efficient to grow plants,( Avoiding dealing with the issue of packing the world so full of people that what we use our agricultural space for matters. ) Most of our "virtue" is only blindness in another guise. Shall we do our best to respect this world we live on and all we share it with? Of course. We all live by the deaths of others timely or otherwise. I pray every day that my life will be worthy of those lives I take, and try to honor them in how I use it.

 

For those who are interested, The Secret Life of Plants is still an available and remarkable book I feel every vegan and most of the rest of us should read to better appreciate some of the life we take for granted. ( by Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird; Harper Paperbacks; March 8, 1989 )

Meanwhile, play music with life in it. Someone died so you could.

Dana

[David Barnert]

When Rich Morse and the Button Box first started making the Morse line of concertinas the bellows were made without leather (some kind of plastic). But they weren't happy with it, and now the web site says:

Our traditionally-constructed bellows have six folds and are constructed of acid-free card stock, goat and cow leathers, linen, and some synthetic materials, for strength, flexibility and durability.

[Torres Strait Anglo]

Excuse me, but if you aren't going to eat that steak can I have it?

 

I'm with Dirge.

[Leo]

Excuse me, but if you aren't going to eat that steak can I have it?

 

I'm with Dirge.

I hope there is enough for three

 

Thanks

Leo

[JimLucas]

Is the vegetarian concertina even possible?

Strange use of the word "vegetarian", which normally means either an animal that doesn't eat meat or a food that is free of meat, not just anything that's made of vegetable matter. E.g., neither a wooden house nor a hemp rope is "vegetarian".

 

But enough with the linguistic nit picking.

Is the vegetarian concertina even possible? Are there any materials that are equivalents to those derived from animals? If alternatives have been tried, what is the impact on performance and longevity of the instruments?

I'm sure that reasonable vegetable or mineral (or did you mean to exclude metals from your concertina, too? ) substitutes for all animal-derived components of a concertina are possible, but some have not yet been developed, because there hasn't been sufficient demand to drive the necessary research.

 

I would expect that it would be possible to develop a vegetable-based substitute for hide glue. After all, a vegetable gelatin was developed for making kosher marshmallows. (Americans are in the habit of putting marshmallows in their hot chocolate. Hot chocolate normally contains milk, and kosher law forbids the mixing of milk products and meat products.)

 

I can (and do) buy excellent quality vegetarian shoes and boots made in a synthetic leather analogue; and there are bagpipe makers (the gaita makers Seivane for one) selling pipes with Goretex bags, so there can't be any air-leak problems with veggie bags and therefore, I would guess, bellows.

I've seen artificial leather in shoes and clothing, but not in other thicknesses, e.g., as thin as used in making the pads and bellows of a concertina. And I have no idea how well or poorly it skives.

 

Steve prompted me to think about the other animal-sourced products used in concertina construction:

 

ivory (rare ivory ended 'tinas & buttons)

tortoise shell (hornbilled turtle)

bone (for buttons)

There are now well-established non-animal substitutes for both ivory and tortoiseshell. And various plastics (Delrin is the main one) are used for making buttons now, instead of bone.

 

French polish? oh, and the felt!

Suggesting that one should avoid any product that derives from an animal source, even if no animal was harmed in harvesting it? Shearing sheep doesn't harm them. In fact, in hot summer weather shearing is beneficial. But if avoiding contact with anything animal is your philosophy, then I guess you don't have any pets.

 

Is the felt of woven wool?

felt - normally broken fur fibres so there is no "thread"

Huh? Fur???

Not any of the felt I've worked with. Made from wool, though neither spun nor woven. And not broken fibers, either. The longer the fibers and the more susceptible to curling and "shrinking", the better. The wool is treated by some process (there are different processes) that causes the fibres to become thoroughly entangled, thus forming a mass that cannot be pulled apart. Some of the "felt" used in concertinas appears to be both woven and felted, so I presume fibers were felted (I would guess through mechanical needle-felting) onto an existing woven cloth.

 

I was intrigued by those carbon fibre edeophone ends though...

Yeah. No glue joints, were there?

[Ransom]

Is the vegetarian concertina even possible?

Strange use of the word "vegetarian", which normally means either an animal that doesn't eat meat or a food that is free of meat, not just anything that's made of vegetable matter. E.g., neither a wooden house nor a hemp rope is "vegetarian".

 

But enough with the linguistic nit picking.

Oh, it's not enough until I've had my turn! =) An animal that doesn't eat meat might often be called an herbivore. I believe the sense in which several people are using the word "vegetarian" here closely corresponds with what folks in my circles call "vegan", which is that not only don't you eat it, you don't wear it or anything else, either.

 

Suggesting that one should avoid any product that derives from an animal source, even if no animal was harmed in harvesting it? Shearing sheep doesn't harm them. In fact, in hot summer weather shearing is beneficial. But if avoiding contact with anything animal is your philosophy, then I guess you don't have any pets.

 

The shearing itself isn't harmful, but the typical worry would be that the sheep are "exploited for their wool"-- perhaps raised in crowded or unsanitary conditions, or subsequently slaughtered and eaten. Wool purchases might subsidize the systematic exploitation of the sheep.

 

It's not about avoiding contact. My most ardently vegan friend has more pets than anyone I know. =)

[m3838]

Popular topic, isn't it?

Do you guys have nothing else to worry about?

Does anybody still live in the country with military draft?

How's that for vegetarian concertina?

 

Edited April 14, 2010 by m3838

[JimLucas]

Hmm. Could we be looking forward to a Carroll Carrott Concertina in the near future?

[tombilly]

I'd like to take a stand for the plant world that we assume has no feelings and boil alive without a moment's thought as we chow down on it's unborn children in our daily bread. Years ago ( not that many ) people believed that animals were too dumb to have feelings, performing live dissections on them on a regular basis to find out what made them tick. We make the same assumptions now with plants, ignoring indications of distributed consciousness and plant to plant communication, and strong defensive reactions to grazing and other animal predation. Pretty good indications that they would like to live out their lives as much as the rest of us. Because most of them aren't mobile, they are easy prey. but prey none the less. We chose not to identify with life, but mobility. How ethical is that?

 

Oh, I'm with you in general terms there Dana and see where you're coming from. You have a strong point but I'm not sure if it's compatible with human existence! In relation to trees, I'm a great admirer of trees as living organisms but I consider that as long as I plant more than I cut down and appreciate them for what they are, then that's the best one can do. Likewise with vegetarianism, I have no problem with people who like the taste of meat and choose to eat it as long as they take the responsibility of killing and preparing the animal with their own hands. The vast majority of meat eaters expect other people to do the dirty work and are divorced from the responsibilty of taking life. At the end of the day, I'd rather a piece of tree in the form of a musical instrument as opposed to a throwaway McDonalds snack box etc.

[Randy Stein]

Let me be serious for a moment (which really is not in my character).

To start out I am a pescetarian, meaning I am not a strict vegetarian but I eat fish and dairy. I also keep kosher. In my religion, eating is an ethical and holy act as much as how we treat each other. The American Indian hunted buffalo and honored it with song, dance, and praise. Every part of the animal was used to sustain a great nation of people: the hides, bones, meat, sinew, etc. Take a look at the clothes you wear. The labels have made in countries where the population is exploited and live in poverty and diminished freedoms.

The concertina has a sound and timbre because of the materials it comes from. Plastic, and paper, metal and cloth, all change the tone and sound of an instrument. James Galway has instruments made from different metals for different timbre and sounds they produce. I used to purchase inexpensive plastic 30 button EC with paper bellows for beginning students to use when I first started teaching, Personally I hated the sound. Also, the processes used to make paper and mine the metals and chemicals to create paper, plastic and the sorts is caustic to the environment.

The fact that an animal has given itself for the betterment of humanity, whether willing or not, makes its life that much more important than few are willing to give.

Play on...

rss

Edited April 14, 2010 by Randy Stein

[SteveS]

Randy raises some very good issues. I agree that the it is the materials used that give us the sound we like from our boxes, and personally I don't have an issue with the killing of animals for their meat, hide and other products that can be derived from them. My issues are the socio-economic exploitation of animals, their effect on the environment (cows contribute a huge amount of greenhouse gases to the atmosphere), and the wasteful over-reliance on and consumption of proteins and foodstuffs derived from animals by the industrialised nations (and which is arguably contributing to increasing incidences of various related diseases). Similary forests and trees must be managed effectively - their wholesale destruction for cheap meat and single season slash crops, has a well documented deleterious effect on the environment and atmosphere. Now if only we could get those things sorted, we'd have much more ethical basis for our instruments.

Edited April 14, 2010 by SteveS

[gavdav]

French polish? oh, and the felt!

Suggesting that one should avoid any product that derives from an animal source, even if no animal was harmed in harvesting it? Shearing sheep doesn't harm them. In fact, in hot summer weather shearing is beneficial. But if avoiding contact with anything animal is your philosophy, then I guess you don't have any pets.

 

I was intrigued by those carbon fibre edeophone ends though...

Yeah. No glue joints, were there?

 

I feel my sense of irony and the general light heartedness with which this thread began may have been lost somewhere in the previous thread - FWIW (nothing) I eat meat (as ethically as I can) and play a large number of instruments made from restricted or endangered or animal products - I'm unconcerned by this fact, as in in neither proud nor ashamed - what works works. The above items were merely an attempt to collate a fun list of items used in making a concertina which derived from animal sources (not to avoid them), in answer to a question earlier in the thread.Personally I'm more bothered by waste than what we use in a material sense.

 

As for fur, pick up any felt hat of any quality (mine, used for occasional Morris outings, is made from beaver fur felt) and most will say fur felt - the highest quality available. I wasn't sure what grade of felt was used in the average wheatstone or jeffries of the last century, and was just citing an example of something else one could get ones knickers in a twist about if you so desired. Again, despite the ranting and stigmatic things from people on both sides of the pro/anti fur lobby I think it is really sad that piles of fur coats get burned so as not to offend anyone.

 

Having just googled it it looks like 'tinas and pianos do usually use wool felt...anyway...

 

Again, I have no axe to grind on either side of this argument - this started off as a well meaning academic question and seems to be drifting into something else. I'm off to play that rosewood Jeffries...

Edited April 14, 2010 by gavdav

[chris]

Hi

I just had to check the date of the first post

chris

[yankeeclipper]

The American Indian hunted buffalo and honored it with song, dance, and praise. Every part of the animal was used to sustain a great nation of people: the hides, bones, meat, sinew, etc.

Actually, Randy, until the Spaniards introduced the horse to them, American Indians got their buffalo "parts" by driving a herd off a cliff, then stripping whatever they needed from the pile of carcasses below - an extremely wasteful method. Examination of remains below old 'buffalo jumps' indicates that many of the victims may not have been utilized at all.

 

As for felt, sheep tend to shed their wool naturally. Unharvested, wool becomes a waste product, like lost hair, molted feathers and dandruff.